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Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables

#263
mulchor said:
This thread keeps getting posts like this that hint at there being some dynamically interactive qualities in the cables.

The principle is to feed a full-spectrum signal and measure how the output differs from cable to cable. The results show the cables don't differ and are as flat as can be measured. A cable simply can not have dynamic qualities, cuz it's just a conductor. It can have capacitance, resistance, inductance.

There is, of course, the things that affect tone that happen in the ethereal plane of existence, and how the cable interacts with the player's aura and past-lives. Hopefully bongomania will find a way to graph those influences.

What I'm becoming convinced of is that instrument cable makers would do very well to create cables marked as:
  • Active instruments only
  • Passive instruments only
  • Hi-fi sound
  • Vintage sound (make it a nice curly cable like Jimi's)
  • Drop-tuned
  • etc.

Cuz no matter what the empirical evidence, I think this market can be milked.
Click to expand...

I know you are illuding to the fact that I'm a moron and I do not claim to be a scientist, but don't insult me.

I asked a simple question,

"Do you or other experts on this topic really feel you are capturing all the variables by not taking a signal of a vibrating string through the pickup?"

I'm not claiming anything. And since this is the real situation where the cables are used it would seem to be a fair question. In a thread where facts are paramount and what someone thinks is not supposed to matter, the best answer given to my question is:

But vibrating a string is not a good test method, and honestly I'm quite sure it would not change the test results anyway.

My example (DB/piezo) is not "full spectrum, pink noise" nor is it a buffered or balanced signal. So what I'm asking is are there variables that may be missing.

In any case Bongo did a good job in his post explaining this and I appreciate that..
 
#264
bongomania said:
I imagine you understand it perfectly well, and it's just that there's some high-frequency distortion or "mystery hash" in the sound card that is being read as noise... or it really is that noisy. :) My workspace has high EMF levels.
Click to expand...

My workspace is pretty bad that way too, especially by my old day jobs' standards. But here's what I just got, using my E-MU 1820M sound card at 24/96:

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My frequency response range testing is a bit truncated in the results window, but correct in the graph AFAIK. Also, this is raw response, including the sound card's uncorrected house curve. I'll address that if/when I do any more tests. But anyhow, I think you should be able to improve your S/N by at least 20dB or so...;)
 
#265
peterpalmieri said:
I know you are illuding to the fact that I'm a moron and I do not claim to be a scientist, but don't insult me.
Click to expand...

No, really I didn't mean you or anyone else is a moron or anything like it.

Incidentally, I don't see anything scientific about this enterprise. It's just a measurement question. At its very most sophisticated, it might get up to engineering.

There are different ways of knowing, different ways of thinking. None is better than another, altho some are better than others for answering particular types of questions. The conflict comes when trying to cross those different ways of thinking. Evidence for one isn't relevant to the other.
 
#266
bongomania said:
OK, I just did the RTA on the cables in series with a P-bass pickup.

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Click the link to see it full-sized. As you can see though, while the pickup drastically changed the overall frequency spectrum, all eight cables performed exactly identically. Hopefully within a few days I'll be able to test the capacitance, and within two weeks I'll be able to test the timing and accuracy of transient peaks.

Cables in this test:

Analysis Plus Bass Oval 20', $155
Elixir Premium 20', $70
Evidence Audio Lyric HG 20', $159
Horizon standard 20', $11
Lava Magma 20', $25
Monster Bass 21', $50
Musician's Gear standard 20', $9
Planet Waves Cable Station 20', $23 (approx)
Click to expand...

I am so glad that the ridiculous myth about "Monster Bass cables attenuate high end" has been put to rest. No one who ever repeated it was ever able to explain to me how the folks at Monster had managed to engineer an eq section into those little plugs.

I use Monster not because I hear a difference in frequency response (I don't), but because they're nice and thick and sturdy so I don't worry when I stomp on them with my $#1+kicker cowboy boots! And when one finally does start to go bad, I can walk into any GC in the country, hand it over the counter to the accessories guy, and walk out with a new one, no questions asked. That's what has made me a Monster user... I have cables that are probably on their third or fourth recycle off the first purchase (bringing them down to about $12 apiece).
 
#269
bongomania said:
I'm using pink noise generated by the testing software. When I ran the cable in series with a P bass pickup, I was still using pink noise as the test signal--just running it through the pickup.

There is not a scientifically-reliable means within my budget for using the action of a vibrating string over the pickup as a test signal.
Click to expand...

Are you meauring the pink noise at the end of the cable and comparing it to that present at the output of the pickup?

How are you getting the pink into the pickup?
 
#270
One thing just sprung to mind, that might've been mentioned before. If all cables transfer the same amount of information in the same way, then why is there a difference in tone when comparing a 50" cable to a 5" cable? Furthermore, if they transfer the same thing, then why do passive basses need buffers so the sound doesn't change? I mean, I know it's because of the loading effect, but shouldn't the cable transfer the same thing, buffer or not?
 
#271
thepontif said:
Are you meauring the pink noise at the end of the cable and comparing it to that present at the output of the pickup?
How are you getting the pink into the pickup?
Click to expand...

center wire of output from soundcard --> white wire of pickup
black wire of pickup --> center wire of cable being tested
other end of cable --> mic input of soundcard

I'm wide open to suggestions for improved methods.
 
#272
Florox said:
One thing just sprung to mind, that might've been mentioned before. If all cables transfer the same amount of information in the same way, then why is there a difference in tone when comparing a 50" cable to a 5" cable? Furthermore, if they transfer the same thing, then why do passive basses need buffers so the sound doesn't change? I mean, I know it's because of the loading effect, but shouldn't the cable transfer the same thing, buffer or not?
Click to expand...

You've pretty much answered your own question & then asked the same question again! :)
 
#273
Florox said:
If all cables transfer the same amount of information in the same way, then why is there a difference in tone when comparing a 50" cable to a 5" cable? Furthermore, if they transfer the same thing, then why do passive basses need buffers so the sound doesn't change? I mean, I know it's because of the loading effect, but shouldn't the cable transfer the same thing, buffer or not?
Click to expand...

Capacitance. 50" of cable is 10 x as capacitive as 5" of the same cable. 50 feet of cable is 120 x as capacitive as 5".
 
#274
Adding to the circus, I just ordered a "Zerocap" cable: Invalid Link Removed
The idea is that a battery-powered device is connected to the shield of the cable, and its function is to reduce the capacitance of the cable to ~60 pF at any length. They do not claim the cable itself is magic in any way, or that it has properties any different from other good-quality cables. Their only claim is near-zero capacitance, and the electronic device is in parallel with the audio, not in series--so it is not part of the audio path.

I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid, but I figured this was a worthy addition to the challenge tests. :)
 
#275
bongomania said:
Capacitance. 50" of cable is 10 x as capacitive as 5" of the same cable. 50 feet of cable is 120 x as capacitive as 5".
Click to expand...
on the other hand, i don't think it's all that critical either. especially for someone like me who doesn't use tweeters or appreciate anything past 5k. maybe my dog can hear it. we do an outdoor gig regularly where a lot of folks bring their dogs. i'll ask some next time if they can hear the loading effect on my too-long cable runs.

;)
 
#277
There seems to be a basic flaw in the methodology here and that his testing the cables' frequency response using individual frequencies.

It tells nothing about what happens to the response when a bunch of frequencies hit the cable at at the same time which is more like what happens in real life. Things that aren't accounted for with single frequency testing.
 
#278
mongo2 said:
There seems to be a basic flaw in the methodology here and that his testing the cables' frequency response using individual frequencies.

It tells nothing about what happens to the response when a bunch of frequencies hit the cable at at the same time which is more like what happens in real life. Things that aren't accounted for with single frequency testing.
Click to expand...

But Pink Noise does hit at the same time. It's about the densest, harmonically rich test you can run!

Am I missing something?
 
#279
JimmyM said:
on the other hand, i don't think it's all that critical either. especially for someone like me who doesn't use tweeters or appreciate anything past 5k. maybe my dog can hear it. we do an outdoor gig regularly where a lot of folks bring their dogs. i'll ask some next time if they can hear the loading effect on my too-long cable runs.
Click to expand...
You're exactly right, of course, for any bassist who doesn't like highs above 5K or so. But again that's a question of preference, which is not what this study is about.
Rumblin' Man said:
Known the truth for decades. Never had to go through all these gyrations figure it out.
All that's needed is some talent in the art of listening.
Click to expand...
:p If you think "talent in the art of listening" has anything to do with it, then you didn't even read the first post. One thing these tests strongly indicate is that "talent in the art of listening" is actually "tendency to believe what you want to believe".
 

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