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Completely new to setting up a PA.

#21
+1 paulears and zooberex.

I still mic stuff in small venues, but just to make stuff sound "bigger" while not really any louder. And to help disperse the sound around the venue, less hotspots and deadspots out in the audience.

And yes, in small places, vocal mic bleed is your friend.

Also yes, if your drummer is going to be in charge of his own submix, he'd better be technically adept, fast/efficient at his mixing, and not be goofing with the thing through the performance, or it will lead to a cluster****, with you having to constantly tweak his channel in the main mix to counteract whatever he's doing and both of you doing more knob-twisting than playing and performing. I'd stay away from that with some drummer who thinks he needs 12 mics.

Are all his mics for drums?, or does he just have an assortment of mics to pitch in/help out with general PA duties?. We might be coming down a little hard on the guy by assuming all his mics are for his drums.

For example, I probably own a dozen mics, but that doesn't mean I want 12 channels for my bass and vocal. They're for everybody.
 
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#22
will33 said:
+1 paulears and zooberex.

I still mic stuff in small venues, but just to make stuff sound "bigger" while not really any louder. And to help disperse the sound around the venue, less hotspots and deadspots out in the audience.

And yes, in small places, vocal mic bleed is your friend.

Also yes, if your drummer is going to be in charge of his own submix, he'd better be technically adept, fast/efficient at his mixing, and not be goofing with the thing through the performance, or it will lead to a cluster****, with you having to constantly tweak his channel in the main mix to counteract whatever he's doing and both of you doing more knob-twisting than playing and performing. I'd stay away from that with some drummer who thinks he needs 12 mics.

Are all his mics for drums?, or does he just have an assortment of mics to pitch in/help out with general PA duties?. We might be coming down a little hard on the guy by assuming all his mics are for his drums.

For example, I probably own a dozen mics, but that doesn't mean I want 12 channels for my bass and vocal. They're for everybody.
Click to expand...

Haha unfortunately the assumption is correct in this case, I think he's looking too far ahead and thinks we're all made of money. He's looking at building a studio and wants everyone to pitch in for gear, nice guy and great drummer but doesn't think about everyone else all the time.
 
#24
His response:

"Yeh but everything needs to have mics or will sound poopie"

"All the kit will have mics and just 2 mics for cymbals and 1 hi hatt mic"

"Snare top and bottom Tom Floor tom Bass drum Side snare Hi hatt 2 to pic up all the cymbals A ride mic ( just in case it don't cut through ) 1 for my cowbell
There's 11 there plus need and input for my electronic pad and brain so 12 all up"
 
#25
If my drummer came to me with that, I'd tell him he gets two channels in the main mixer. He can use them as he sees fit.

If he wanted to buy the 12+ mics (and spares) and a sub mixer, I'd let him try it for a while. But I certainly would not put out a dollar to help him.

I just bought a Mackie DL1608, and will pickup the powered speakers when I need them. Turns out, our first gig has house sound, as do the two best places to play in town. So I may use the mixer only for rehearsals for a while.
 
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#26
Every mic you put on stage will create that much more potential mush and problem - every mic will have phase shift with mics that are in a different location for one thing - and every mic is that much more potential for feedback. So think of it as needing to lower your monitor level a little more for each and every mic you put on the stage.

You will get the cleanest sound with the fewest mics that will capture what needs capturing. I'm a big fan of using the fewest mics possible.

I play in a band with percussionists, drummer, four vocals, horns, flute, two keyboardists plus bass and guitar - that's a lot of mics and a lot of potential for mushy sound from too many mics. Depending on the setting (outside concerts are the easiest in terms of sound) we may have mic on Kick, snare, hat and two or three toms and one overhead -- plus three -four mics on congas/bongos and two mics on timbales. But we have done plenty of shows where we had kick and snare mics only (and maybe an overhead) and they have actually turned out sounding great!

In fact when I record in the studio - I put mics on everything (to individual tracks) but I also set up a simple three mic rig on drums - two overheads measured distance to be in phase with both snare and kick - and a kick mic. I'm still recording tracks from all the individual mics on every tom etc. But I rarely use any of those tracks in the final mix (except the snare I'm likely to use - but it really is mostly captured by the two overheads). It is surprising to everyone how good and balanced the drum kit sounds with just three mics. The secret is in positioning them so kick and snare are in phase.
 
#27
We're five in the band and make do with 16 channels (5 song mics, 1 bass, 2 guitars, 1 harmonica, 2 for keyboards, 5 for drums). If need be we could use effects returns or subgroups as extra channels, or a small submixer.

There are plenty of web sites that show you mic setups for drums that use way fewer mics than your drummer has; you don't need or even want a mic on every piece of the drum kit for live sound. All it gets you is more setup time, more soundcheck time and more teardown time.
 
#28
RyanHutchison9 said:
His response:

"Yeh but everything needs to have mics or will sound ****"

"All the kit will have mics and just 2 mics for cymbals and 1 hi hatt mic"

"Snare top and bottom Tom Floor tom Bass drum Side snare Hi hatt 2 to pic up all the cymbals A ride mic ( just in case it don't cut through ) 1 for my cowbell
There's 11 there plus need and input for my electronic pad and brain so 12 all up"
Click to expand...

Figured as much. Just tell him he's allocated two mic channels for the drums so use wisely. If he does come back with a sub-mixer, mark the channels with fluorescent tape as you'll be wanting to drag those sliders down about 15 seconds into the first tune.

Have you ever actually gigged with this guy before? If not, do you know anybody who has?

Riis
 
#31
At the risk of piling on, your drummer is being a weenie. I played with drummer that had 6 or so mics and his own submixer. Wanted to use it all no matter how small the gig. Constant battle with feedback. The guitarist also had a full stack that he mic'd and put into the PA. At small bars. I don't do this anymore.

Ric5 said:
In the old days the pa system was just for vocals ...

Then the state of the art was mike or di everything and use in-ear monitors.

I think the future of pa systems may be this ...

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...

We're close.

photo2_zps660aec18.jpg


One 12 sub and 1 k10. Two monitors and the drummer used his own k12 to have some extra kick. No amps. We don't gig enough to justify the in-ear expense. I went ahead and got a second 12 sub. And I'll probably still use a bass rig on some gigs.
 
#34
How would the drummer even know what needs adjusting in his submix from behind the kit? Please don't say he wants the full mix in his monitor too at these little gigs.

FWIW, I only ran one monitor mix into 2 monitor wedges for a 4-piece band in situations like this. One wedge between me and the frontman and one between him and the guitar player on the other side. All they had in them was vocals and acoustic guitar and was plenty enough for everyone, including the drummer, to hear ourselves clearly. Our stage sound, level, and mix was pretty similar to what it was in the rehearsal room.
 
#35
Zooberwerx said:
Figured as much. Just tell him he's allocated two mic channels for the drums so use wisely. If he does come back with a sub-mixer, mark the channels with fluorescent tape as you'll be wanting to drag those sliders down about 15 seconds into the first tune.

Have you ever actually gigged with this guy before? If not, do you know anybody who has?

Riis
Click to expand...
I haven't gigged with him before, don't know anyone who has either. Atleast he's off the idea of getting an X32 for the time being... although he's looking at a full Peavey setup with 2 subs now...

buldog5151bass said:
If you want to keep him busy, here is just one article - http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1997_articles/dec97/drumiking1.html (I'm sure he won't believe a bunch of bassists) - two or three tops.

I still think he is using the "band" as an excuse to fund his studio, which still would not need that many mics for the drums.
Click to expand...

It's funny that's exactly what he said when I told him I got some advice from the forum, when I tried to tell him that many of you probably had more experience then our whole band put together he still didn't budge. I don't know what to do with him, he's got the right mindset and is really into the music but there's just some things about him that can get quite tiring sometimes. Maybe I should stop being so passive... :dead: Thanks for all the help guys, I'm learning quite a bit.
 
#37
Tell him he doesn't need that many mics. And unless he's playing at Pompeii, he probably never will.

Did I read correctly? Top-snare/bottom-snare mics AND a side snare? Sheesh, man.

If it's just small gigs for now, you just need vocals, MAYBE guitars; there's the potential for you to need a DI. That's it. Drummer needs 4 max. Snare, Kick, two overheads.
 
#38
How many instruments do you have? How many vocalists do you have? Even giving room for growth, one channel for each, and two (3 max for drums) is enough. Any more than that, he pays for the sub-mixer, and he does all the load in and out on that in addition to helping everyone pack the pa.
 
#39
buldog5151bass said:
How many instruments do you have? How many vocalists do you have? Even giving room for growth, one channel for each, and two (3 max for drums) is enough. Any more than that, he pays for the sub-mixer, and he does all the load in and out on that in addition to helping everyone pack the pa.
Click to expand...

2 guitarists, bass and the kit. (1 main vocalist + 1 backing) I think that's a fair compromise, I still don't think he will budge on the amount of mics he needs though unfortunately.
 
#40
RyanHutchison9 said:
His response:

"Yeh but everything needs to have mics or will sound ****"

"All the kit will have mics and just 2 mics for cymbals and 1 hi hatt mic"

"Snare top and bottom Tom Floor tom Bass drum Side snare Hi hatt 2 to pic up all the cymbals A ride mic ( just in case it don't cut through ) 1 for my cowbell
There's 11 there plus need and input for my electronic pad and brain so 12 all up"
Click to expand...

For recording in studio maybe yes. For 'mega supergroup' type of stadium gig perhaps yes.
Perhaps your drummer mistakenly read too much about those two topics and is a dreamer.
Start simple and you'd be good.

----------------------------------------

RyanHutchison9 said:
he's got the right mindset and is really into the music
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FretNoMore said:
No, he hasn't. ;)
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Agree with FretNoMore

Drummer (or any musicians) with a right mindset should always be able & ready to play in and with any condition, including the simplest setup he/she can get. Even if they are superstars. Only that superstars usually have big demands - that worth it considering their status.

And No, Ryan, I think your drummer is more into 'fantastic gears dream' of his own than into music.
 
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