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Concerned About Where Live Sound Is Headed

#181
I'm just a amateur level musician/sound engineer, by choice, but I agree with the OP. It's hard to find good mixes out there. Most times, the subs are over baring. Clarity should come first with vocals being prominent. The rest of the instruments are there for support. Indoors, around the area I live in, most bands are mixed way to loud for the venue and then the subs are way to hot. For some reason it's become supposedly kick &$$ to have that thumping sub output. Nope not me, no thank you, I'll take clarity. If you can't have a conversation with someone standing a foot away without yelling at them, then it's to loud. The kiss technique has a lot of benefits. Technology has nothing to do with it imo. I've heard awesome mixes back in the 80's and awesome mixes recently. The only thing technology has done is make it possible to have awesome mixes easier in the right hands, but it's also made terrible mixes easier in the wrong hands
 
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#182
interp said:
I could not agree more. I have basically stopped going to most live shows for this very reason. It would seem that sound men these days (and maybe audiences?) are disinterested in anything above 90 Hz.
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I've come to the conclusion that the misuse of modern PA systems are largely responsible for the decline in live music attendance. People just don't want to hear it, and the attendance shows it. The trend has been going on for decades... It's not just a 2020 thing.

As a musician, it's painful to have to walk out on a band I support because the mix is destroying my hearing.
 
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#185
I still maintain that clean trumps volume any day of the week...
Unfortunately, that seems to not be the case anymore....
I remember bands on a flatbed that had the high dollar PAs of the day like a Shure Vocalmaster with two columns and sounded like a million bucks... Plenty had A7s pushed with a Crown 300...and sounded like a million bucks...

If the slider munky has not a clue, a big ass Vi desk from hell and JBL tour arrays/big-bottoms ain't gonna make a hill of beans difference... May as well be using Bullfrog tops and Sonic rat's ass bottoms, pushed by CS800s and a Tapco mixer.....
 
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#186
edro said:
I still maintain that clean trumps volume any day of the week...
Unfortunately, that seems to not be the case anymore....
I remember bands on a flatbed that had the high dollar PAs of the day like a Shure Vocalmaster with two columns and sounded like a million bucks... Plenty had A7s pushed with a Crown 300...and sounded like a million bucks...

If the slider munky has not a clue, a big ass Vi desk from hell and JBL tour arrays/big-bottoms ain't gonna make a hill of beans difference... May as well be using Bullfrog tops and Sonic rat's ass bottoms, pushed by CS800s and a Tapco mixer.....
Click to expand...
I still have a Bullfrog 12 channel mixer that my grandson uses for backyard reggae parties :)
 
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#187
DJ Bebop said:
I still have a Bullfrog 12 channel mixer that my grandson uses for backyard reggae parties :)
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I still have the old Sonic big ass 3-way wedge monitor from hell that I used in the dark ages for my onstage keyboard monitor (I played KB in several bands back then)... My older bro stole it once when I was home, and took it out on the road with him... I was relieved because when I went back out, it didn't go with me.... I used something else and LIGHTER WEIGHT... Great piece of gear though... He brought it back to me after several years... The mid driver had suffered from either dry rot or fingerpokin...not sure... Never replaced it because I'd be tempted to use it... Sounded incredible for keys (stack of Korgs and a Prophet).... I keep it in case of a hurricane... I can tie my leg to it and at least they'll find my body cause I wouldn't go nowhere tied to that boat anchor... I may replace everything in it with high end drivers one day...
 
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#188
edro said:
I still have the old Sonic big ass 3-way wedge monitor from hell that I used in the dark ages for my onstage keyboard monitor (I played KB in several bands back then)... My older bro stole it once when I was home, and took it out on the road with him... I was relieved because when I went back out, it didn't go with me.... I used something else and LIGHTER WEIGHT... Great piece of gear though... He brought it back to me after several years... The mid driver had suffered from either dry rot or fingerpokin...not sure... Never replaced it because I'd be tempted to use it... Sounded incredible for keys (stack of Korgs and a Prophet).... I keep it in case of a hurricane... I can tie my leg to it and at least they'll find my body cause I wouldn't go nowhere tied to that boat anchor... I may replace everything in it with high end drivers one day...
Click to expand...
We use a little rack of stuff with the Bullfrog mixer to run these in th backyard:
fPeavey_115_International_Series_III_Spea_599da4e106cc2 (1).jpg

Good times :)
 
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#190
Bit of an update.

Many of you will laugh, but....

One of the Wife's work acquaintances and her husband had an extra pair of tix to hear Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons at the Tucson Music Hall. We were asked to go; and I'm really glad we did. GREAT show.

FWIW, Frankie Valli is 85 now; and he put on a high energy show for the better part of two straight hours. His voice seems to have barely diminished. Amazing. Nine piece band was nothing short of stellar.

The PA was a large array and one bank of subs on each side. There was still that thing going on in the bass range, which I detest about two and three way systems. But, the sound engineer did a great job making everything clear, articulate, and true to the intended stage mix. BTW, it was LOUD.

So, again, an example that modern gear can be used to properly reinforce a band's INTENDED sound. The "problem" is most definitely NOT the gear.

Rendering the bass instrument to be an amorphous pile of unarticulated boom in overused bass bins is most definitely a choice made by the sound engineer. Possibly in some cases the bass player is part of the decision; but, I suspect that is less common. Like I wrote in the OP, I suspect the beater Honda Civic with the 1000W subwoofer is the training ground.

The biggest issue I have with this trend is that it generally makes the bass player unnecessary, aside from eye candy. I hope the trend is short lived. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.
 
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#195
I'll say it again...Dan Healey was sound engineer for the dead for many years up until about 93' that guy was excellent at sound. Their sound quality was top notch clear, bass was loud when it needed to be or was supposed to be, but not boomy. The vocals were crystal clear and everything was just superb...plus he did a lot of extra stuff like swirling the music around in a quad system and many effects. I used to occasionally get tickets next to the sound board to watch him do his thing...never fully understood it all..too much gear and computers and racks, footpedals on the ground..ha ha..but that band always had state of the art gear too from Meyer sound I think it was..
 
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#198
Johnny Crab said:
Red text points to inexperience, subs belong next to each other. Your hearing proved the point. The room may have been a nightmare but I've seen great systems sound like garbage with improper configurations and/or incompetent operators.

What you experienced is why I won't go to live shows unless I KNOW the FOH operator OR my FOH friends tell me "they know what they're doing". I've heard one too many great bands' shows where the audio was similar to your description. I'd rather buy the DVD and crank it at home on the big screen with big audio if FOH is a question mark.
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While clustered subs are often preferred, setups with subs below mains might be necessary for some reason. Depending on room size, shape and general architecture, audience location, stage layout and so on, subs below mains can generate very nice results, sometimes better than clustered subs.
 
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