Hmmmm. I've been complaining about the quality of live sound for 50 years. This is nothing new.
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Concerned About Where Live Sound Is Headed
- Thread starter bucephylus
- Start date
This story reminds me of a great tale of how audio products are developed. Back in the 50s, General Electric wanted to come out with a stereo console hi-fi that had the "sound people wanted to hear." To help them create this product and learn what sound people liked, they arranged a focus group with a cross section of ages and incomes, etc. They invited the participants into an acoustically controlled environment where they were played several different types of music and given access to a multiple band tone control system and given the order to adjust it until it sounded perfect to them. After 8 months of conducting these sessions and getting input from hundreds of people, General Electric learned that to this group of people, AM radio was the perfect sound. The moral of the story is that most people have no idea what good sound is.
Well, I've heard some amazing sounding shows, and some absolute s^*t in recent months. From clubs to large venues. I don't think the tech is the issue at all. It's when the FOH guy thinks that "bass drum of death" is the appropriate strategy.....
Nice to see how the second sticky in this forum has gone right out the window.
Not saying I disagree with the sentiment.
"May not be our fault, but it's our responsibility." - JPG. One of the most intelligent comments I've ever read in pro audio.
Not saying I disagree with the sentiment.
"May not be our fault, but it's our responsibility." - JPG. One of the most intelligent comments I've ever read in pro audio.
idk. I tend to concur with the OP on poor, "pro level" mixes.
As a freelancer at FOH (not a pro - I don't make my living from it - but I DO get paid!) having run all kinds of analog and smaller digital (but not the big pro rigs), the basics of mixing haven't changed - but the tech and price points have!
The problem I see is over use! Just because your Touchmix 30 has compression, gates, EFX (and other "Stuff") on each channel, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.
I've subbed at churches where they have EVERYTHING in use.. eg: an X32 with compression on everything (even vox), gates, tons of effects (reverb, delay, chorus) and EQ profiles that look like a six flags roller coaster!
Then there's the "dance club" mentality where the kick/bass are prominent and driving in everything!. Great in the right place, but not everywhere.
When I mix a covers/tribute, I try to make them blend like the original, regardless of genre.
If I don't know the material or it's an originals band whose material I am not familiar with, I'll try to map the mix to the appropriate genre.
When I mix at local churches, I make sure I prep for the gig, and know what the expectations are.
But, there nothing quite like walking into the Sat am church rehearsal to find out you've got 42 inputs - from hand bells and large choir (with overheads) to full electric band (drums, bass, acoustic/electric), acoustic timpani, rain stick, bells, horn (5) and string (8) sections, 5 vocalists, a lectern mic (used by 6 different people) and the principal pastor's wireless headset mic (who expects FOH to watch for muting and un-mute his mic during the service)!!
Can't say I always make it great, but I haven't been fired yet!
Never did this before, but wrote an email to the Chicago ( group )web site saying I would fire the Mix engineers!!
I was 40 feet from the mix board and everything was distorting @ 150 db. Had to put my fingers in ears it was so loud. I have seen many shows ( big names ) where it takes the FOH boys 3 or 4 songs to find levels. I see them looking at the pipe lights ( VU ) meters, in stead of using their ears! It is becoming a lost art.
I was 40 feet from the mix board and everything was distorting @ 150 db. Had to put my fingers in ears it was so loud. I have seen many shows ( big names ) where it takes the FOH boys 3 or 4 songs to find levels. I see them looking at the pipe lights ( VU ) meters, in stead of using their ears! It is becoming a lost art.
I blame low quality earbuds, car audio with stupid fat sub frequencies (all flab) and smiley face eq "enhancement" presets. If that's how you listen to highly compressed, low bitrate digitally mangled " music" , that's what sounds good to you ...
Sigh.
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I totally concur. Almost every local show I've seen in the last three years was completely overpowered by the kick drum via the subs. The kick and its decay swamped everything else to the point where it was hard to hear the vocals and other instruments. And the bass was an indistinct blur. It's like a fetish these days. Really annoying for anyone who wants to hear all the instruments or, for example, vocal harmonies. Maybe some people like it--it's definitely "impressive" and "big" sounding, but I wouldn't say it was musical or even enjoyable. It's like the FOH people are all going to the same school where they're taught that the kick must obliterate everything else when it hits, and that it takes a quarter second for everything to come back afterwards.
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Agreed. That was exactly my concern. Not a pleasing trend.
Hey, wait a minute. I am NOT slagging any sound engineers. And, hopefully posts in this thread will avoid that. I was remarking on a trend I've been hearing in live sound presentations, regarding purposeful change in the way the music is presented. If we can't discuss that topic in this forum, then I'm missing the point.
My wife and I attended a major Tucson fund raiser this weekend. The entertainment was a top flight corporate band called The Midnight Special out of Hollywood. I take this act to be pretty representative of where live soundstages are headed.
The band was TIGHT. Four outstanding front voices, excellent backing players.
The show sounded like utter garbage. Of course, the stage was ampless. FOH was two elevated 4x arrays and two sub woofers on the floor on each side of the stage. The mixing boards looked like NASA control centers. The technology was there. The sound was awful, and in a way that is concerning. Basically, there was a massive hole from about 90Hz up to about 275 Hz. So, what was projected was ear piercing levels of mainly drums burying everything and prerecorded horn tracks (no horn section). Or, maybe the keys had the the horn patches. Sounded like tracks.
Anyhow, drums were burying the vocals, chordal instruments were mud, and bass was a drone with no content above 90 Hz. Sad to say, this isn't the first time I've heard this kind of live mix. In fact, it seems to be becoming more prevalent. And, I can't tell if it's happening because the modern PA's encourage it, or because the sound engineers are being taught to target that kind of mix, or some of both, or something else.
In any case, the classic Motown stuff does NOT play well in that mix. No groove whatsoever in the FOH, even though it was clear the band members were grooving in their IEM channels. The mix literally destroyed the material.
Some folks dance to it, because they had more than a few and what the heck, they're out for a good time. But, seriously, most hated the levels more than anything; and the fact that the mix obscured the good stuff going on didn't help at all.
Not my band, and glad I don't have to perform in that gig. Not doing the music any favors, that's for sure. Perhaps, I'm too old school.But, it seems to me that we have the cart driving the horse; the technology is usurping the music. I think that's sad. The crowd isn't impressed. As a musician, I'm not impressed. I think it has gotten bad for the music.
Digital Everything: Instead of asking if we could, we need to be asking if we should.
In the rush to show their self-imposed internet intelligence, some folks completely missed your very simple, to understand, point.
At our yearly big biker event, AZ Bike Week, they have big name bands in a very large out door staged setting.
Heart and Korn sounded fantastic. CCR Revisited and Alice Cooper sounded ok. But ZZ Top sounded absolutely horrible! I don't know what this means but same venue, same stage, I have to assume same sound company. Why would this be?
Heart and Korn sounded fantastic. CCR Revisited and Alice Cooper sounded ok. But ZZ Top sounded absolutely horrible! I don't know what this means but same venue, same stage, I have to assume same sound company. Why would this be?
On the positive side, I just saw Slayer's last show, and the sound was really quite good!
Lucky you.
I went to a Metallica concert, in 1992, and it was so damn loud, we ended up leaving early, and the after-concert ringing in my ears, never went away.
As a former sound company owner who worked with most of the world class acts from the San Francisco Bay Area on the big stages at the big shows, I share your feelings. Here's the thing. The technology is there for live sound to be pristine. Better than its ever been before. The shortcoming is in the people who are responsible for properly setting up and operating the high tech systems when they should sound glorious, but don't. How many loudspeakers were blown in the system you heard? You'll never know. Bottom line is, it's up to the performing artists to hold the sound company to a certain standard. In some situations, the artists don't even have any say. IEM's are a mixed blessing if they lull the performers into a false sense of complacency. The list goes on, and on.
Going to a live performance has always been hit, or miss. Probably always will be. For so many reasons.
Going to a live performance has always been hit, or miss. Probably always will be. For so many reasons.
I think all wannabe sound engineers should be made to mix polka bands for at least 2 or 3 years before they are allowed to move on to other genres. Gear should be limited to 57 and 58 mics, a 16 channel analog board with 3 band fixed eq on the strips, a 150W power amp and a couple of 2 way boxes.
When they learn to produce a good mix under these conditions, only then would they be allowed to advance to mixing country music as the next step in the process.
I could not agree more. I have basically stopped going to most live shows for this very reason. It would seem that sound men these days (and maybe audiences?) are disinterested in anything above 90 Hz.My wife and I attended a major Tucson fund raiser this weekend. The entertainment was a top flight corporate band called The Midnight Special out of Hollywood. I take this act to be pretty representative of where live soundstages are headed.
The band was TIGHT. Four outstanding front voices, excellent backing players.
The show sounded like utter garbage. Of course, the stage was ampless. FOH was two elevated 4x arrays and two sub woofers on the floor on each side of the stage. The mixing boards looked like NASA control centers. The technology was there. The sound was awful, and in a way that is concerning. Basically, there was a massive hole from about 90Hz up to about 275 Hz. So, what was projected was ear piercing levels of mainly drums burying everything and prerecorded horn tracks (no horn section). Or, maybe the keys had the the horn patches. Sounded like tracks.
Anyhow, drums were burying the vocals, chordal instruments were mud, and bass was a drone with no content above 90 Hz. Sad to say, this isn't the first time I've heard this kind of live mix. In fact, it seems to be becoming more prevalent. And, I can't tell if it's happening because the modern PA's encourage it, or because the sound engineers are being taught to target that kind of mix, or some of both, or something else.
In any case, the classic Motown stuff does NOT play well in that mix. No groove whatsoever in the FOH, even though it was clear the band members were grooving in their IEM channels. The mix literally destroyed the material.
Some folks dance to it, because they had more than a few and what the heck, they're out for a good time. But, seriously, most hated the levels more than anything; and the fact that the mix obscured the good stuff going on didn't help at all.
Not my band, and glad I don't have to perform in that gig. Not doing the music any favors, that's for sure. Perhaps, I'm too old school.
Sometimes my corporate band gets mixed like this. Sometimes it doesn't.
I once tried to get the booming lows taken down in the FOH on one of my gigs only to have the singer say "No, leave it, I love it." Yikes...
I once tried to get the booming lows taken down in the FOH on one of my gigs only to have the singer say "No, leave it, I love it." Yikes...
