Concerned About Where Live Sound Is Headed

[bassmanrocke]

Too many sound engineers are fans of one genre, not all genres. As a result, the mixes can get screwy. What works for hip hop does not translate well for classic rock, or country, or alternative,etc. So a sound guys who justifiably gets great references from a hip hop club can totally mess up a rock show, and vise versa.The advanced technology just accentuates how wrong the mix is.

There's a reason experience is essential for sound guys. Flexibility is not a strength of the inexperienced.

 

[MynameisMe]

Lucky you.

I went to a Metallica concert, in 1992, and it was so damn loud, we ended up leaving early, and the after-concert ringing in my ears, never went away.

Yeah, those were not the days....

 

[MynameisMe]

For whatever reason, whenever I'm running sound you can hear the bass clear as a bell without the boominess.
I think a musician with a good ear can be a great sound person.

 

[oldcatfish]

It's not the gear. Not at all.

It's not the room. I can make a great band sound pretty stinking good in even the worst acoustic conditions. They may not sound good everywhere in the room. But from the stage to the board they'll sound fine.

It's the humans.

1) "Pro" musicians have "their sound". They insist on sending the sound guy what THEY prefer. Often it's pure MUD coming from the bass because that's the bass player's favorite warm fuzzy fat round bedroom tone. And often that sounds like garbage in a live mix. Yep, I've heard it before. "A good sound guy can take any tone and make it sound great in a mix." That's pure BS. It's often a screeching mess coming from the guitar. Never mind that guitar players are stomping on stuff all night and sound COMPLETELY different from song to song. Just about the time you get them a sonic niche carved out, they go from fat and round to thin and piercing. And don't even get me started on keys players.

2) The sound guys/gals themselves. They think they are doing the audience a favor by making the live mix sound like a car stereo loud enough to rattle windows as they roll down the street. Nothing but boom. It's awful. Sure, my mixes sound "live". But that doesn't mean they knock you over with bass.

Nope. It's not the equipment, which is getting ridiculously more clear, light, and loud every day. And I can make most any PA sound fine from the speakers to about 40 feet out in almost any room.

It's the people. Start there.

---This is it 100%.

 

[BwanaDust]

idk. I tend to concur with the OP on poor, "pro level" mixes.
As a freelancer at FOH (not a pro - I don't make my living from it - but I DO get paid!) having run all kinds of analog and smaller digital (but not the big pro rigs), the basics of mixing haven't changed - but the tech and price points have!
The problem I see is over use! Just because your Touchmix 30 has compression, gates, EFX (and other "Stuff") on each channel, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.
I've subbed at churches where they have EVERYTHING in use.. eg: an X32 with compression on everything (even vox), gates, tons of effects (reverb, delay, chorus) and EQ profiles that look like a six flags roller coaster!
Then there's the "dance club" mentality where the kick/bass are prominent and driving in everything!. Great in the right place, but not everywhere.
When I mix a covers/tribute, I try to make them blend like the original, regardless of genre.
If I don't know the material or it's an originals band whose material I am not familiar with, I'll try to map the mix to the appropriate genre.
When I mix at local churches, I make sure I prep for the gig, and know what the expectations are.
But, there nothing quite like walking into the Sat am church rehearsal to find out you've got 42 inputs - from hand bells and large choir (with overheads) to full electric band (drums, bass, acoustic/electric), acoustic timpani, rain stick, bells, horn (5) and string (8) sections, 5 vocalists, a lectern mic (used by 6 different people) and the principal pastor's wireless headset mic (who expects FOH to watch for muting and un-mute his mic during the service)!!
Can't say I always make it great, but I haven't been fired yet!

I have to agree on the overuse/misuse of all the new gadgets. After mixing live professionally for the past 15 years, I've noticed that I rarely touch the eq anymore (of course, this has a lot to do with the rooms I work in being well-tuned). Unless I'm hanging mics for a play, I don't really touch the eq in our small theater. Not for individual instruments (aside form a high-pass on vocals and maybe a few inst.), or even monitors (we still use wedges).

We have a CL5 in the big room and it has all these hardware emulations you can add (including Neve Portico and classic UA comps). I never touch them and I get nothing but compliments on the sound in there. The guy who comes in and does the big musicals does use that and a a lot of other nonsense, and I hear complaints about the sound all the time. So, it's definitely not the gear. It's the operators.

As for corporate acts.... ugh.

We still use wedges for most stuff

 

[nnnnnn]

I said, "Trust me to provide appropriate tone and volume." They kept pumping the volume and stomping pedals all night.

One of the sound guys at my former church once told me he liked when I was rostered on for guitar because my volume didn't keep changing every time I stepped on a pedal. I said why would it? I take time to adjust the settings so that my clean, overdrive, and distortion tones are balanced with each other as best as I can manage, I only give myself a slight volume boost when playing a solo. Turned out when some of the other guitarists played the poor sound guy had to always be ready to make on-the-fly adjustments to compensate for unexpected pedal settings that hadn't been used during rehearsal, etc.

Nothing wrong with pedals, but one must take time to configure them properly.

 

[monkeyland]

My wife and I attended a major Tucson fund raiser this weekend. The entertainment was a top flight corporate band called The Midnight Special out of Hollywood. I take this act to be pretty representative of where live soundstages are headed.

The band was TIGHT. Four outstanding front voices, excellent backing players.

The show sounded like utter garbage. Of course, the stage was ampless. FOH was two elevated 4x arrays and two sub woofers on the floor on each side of the stage. The mixing boards looked like NASA control centers. The technology was there. The sound was awful, and in a way that is concerning. Basically, there was a massive hole from about 90Hz up to about 275 Hz. So, what was projected was ear piercing levels of mainly drums burying everything and prerecorded horn tracks (no horn section). Or, maybe the keys had the the horn patches. Sounded like tracks.

Anyhow, drums were burying the vocals, chordal instruments were mud, and bass was a drone with no content above 90 Hz. Sad to say, this isn't the first time I've heard this kind of live mix. In fact, it seems to be becoming more prevalent. And, I can't tell if it's happening because the modern PA's encourage it, or because the sound engineers are being taught to target that kind of mix, or some of both, or something else.

In any case, the classic Motown stuff does NOT play well in that mix. No groove whatsoever in the FOH, even though it was clear the band members were grooving in their IEM channels. The mix literally destroyed the material.

Some folks dance to it, because they had more than a few and what the heck, they're out for a good time. But, seriously, most hated the levels more than anything; and the fact that the mix obscured the good stuff going on didn't help at all.

Not my band, and glad I don't have to perform in that gig. Not doing the music any favors, that's for sure. Perhaps, I'm too old school. But, it seems to me that we have the cart driving the horse; the technology is usurping the music. I think that's sad. The crowd isn't impressed. As a musician, I'm not impressed. I think it has gotten bad for the music.

I have a lot of questions about that. The first would be regarding system make up and tuning. Did the set of 4 array boxes have pattern control below 275? Was the system properly aligned? Was the system properly splayed for the space?

Line array systems have been an amazing innovation in the field, but they require a certain level of knowledge to achieve the best results. If the boxes are not oriented correctly in relation to each other you can create phase issues and cancellations. Getting that correct is the first step. Fortunately there are software tools available for most reputable systems that make this easy.

The second thing is that, depending on the box, many line array systems don't achieve pattern control down to the crossover point at only 4 boxes. As someone that owns a 4 per side array I will say that just going out to 6 per side greatly improves the coherence of the system down around 100hz.

And of course there is system alignment and crossover frequency. That's a whole other subject that can take a lifetime to understand but I would recommend to every young engineer to take a class such as the Smaart Operators Fundamentals offered by rational acoustics. There are so many things other than just "boom/sizzle" that come into play when deploying any audio system.

I would also question who deployed that system. Was this a hotel ballroom environment? If it was in house AV there is no telling what the skill level of those setting it up was, regardless of how nice the gear is.

 

[JRA]

'May not be our fault, but it's our responsibility.'

garbage in, garbage out.
You can't polish a turd

 

[wraub]

I frequent several local music venues, and while most sound good, a couple in particular always sound good, regardless of band or genre.
All digital, soundguys on tablets, stalking the room and adjusting... Skills and training help.

I don't hate it.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Just because the technology has gotten better, doesn't mean the FOH engineer has.
You can have the best/newest gear in the world and still make it sound horrible.

I agree 100% that it's the engineers job to provide a good mix for the room, regardless of what's sent
to them via the snake.

Much like playing bass is all about the fingers, for engineers it's all about the ears.
Dirk

 

[Chrisk-K]

To me, the only two types of live music that sounds awesome are musicals and classical music.

 

[CryingBass]

Maybe some FOH guys should turn off their iPad mixers and open their ears...

 

[s0c9]

I agree 100% that it's the engineers job to provide a good mix for the room, regardless of what's sent
to them via the snake.

Umm NO!!
As I stated above, you can't polish a turd.
If I'm getting a garbage load of mush from the source, not amount of FOH tech is going to be able to clean it up and make it sit in the mix like a CD.
The folks on stage have to have some idea of what they are doing.

 

[Oddly]

Over the years, I've made a point of contacting venues and acts after a show to give feedback on sound, both positive and negative.
I will mention I have some small experience in sound production, and as a musician, and usually get at least a thank-you in return.
Sometimes it's just a copy-and-paste blow-off, but sometimes I get through to someone who actually cares and might be in a position to do something.

All I can suggest here is that if enough people contact venues, acts, management to complain, things might improve.
If nobody says anything, these people will just assume everything is fine and carry on as is.

 

[ugly_bassplayer]

Yep. Nothing new here. FOH tech has the good old fashioned "suck switch" enabled.

A good sound engineer is very very rare and priceless.

 

[Slevage]

A bad pilot can easily crash a plane.

I went to a 3 band show about 7 years ago. Grace Potter, Little Feat —- sounded ok but not great—- huge line array system.
Then the head liner's turn (Warren Haynes). The only change to the FOH system was a state of the art, digital board and I assume Warren's engineer.
The sound was absolutely perfect.
About 10x better than the previous acts.
It can be done with the correct knowledge and ears.

 

[bucephylus]

I have a lot of questions about that. The first would be regarding system make up and tuning. Did the set of 4 array boxes have pattern control below 275? Was the system properly aligned? Was the system properly splayed for the space?

Line array systems have been an amazing innovation in the field, but they require a certain level of knowledge to achieve the best results. If the boxes are not oriented correctly in relation to each other you can create phase issues and cancellations. Getting that correct is the first step. Fortunately there are software tools available for most reputable systems that make this easy.

The second thing is that, depending on the box, many line array systems don't achieve pattern control down to the crossover point at only 4 boxes. As someone that owns a 4 per side array I will say that just going out to 6 per side greatly improves the coherence of the system down around 100hz.

And of course there is system alignment and crossover frequency. That's a whole other subject that can take a lifetime to understand but I would recommend to every young engineer to take a class such as the Smaart Operators Fundamentals offered by rational acoustics. There are so many things other than just "boom/sizzle" that come into play when deploying any audio system.

I would also question who deployed that system. Was this a hotel ballroom environment? If it was in house AV there is no telling what the skill level of those setting it up was, regardless of how nice the gear is.

Right. Good Q's.

The thing is that I have little doubt that you, @s0c9, or other experienced sound engineers here could correct things. My fear is that there aren't enough of you out there; and meanwhile the issue is taking on a life of its own. This is not the first time I've noticed this type of soundstage.

Will this situation correct itself? Don't know. Right now the trend seems to be in a different direction.

 

[bucephylus]

BTW, FWIW, this act had three sound engineers. Two out in the house and one stage right. There were multiple eyes and ears on the situation.

 

[Altitude]

I think the new technology is causing bands to stop using professional sound engineers who are in the room.

Instead, a member of the band is trying to mix the show from the stage, where he is probably wearing IEMs all night and can't actually hear the room at all. Mayhem ensues.

Edit - interesting that your post just above this says otherwise. Sounds like you just saw a band with a crap mix.

 

[J-Mags]

To me, this is why amps on a stage are preferable. They give you a baseline of what the band is supposed to sound like, and they're not entirely under the control of FOH. If you want to sound like a band in a room, it's best to be a band in a room. You can't tell me that a high end band with professional amps couldn't show up in most spaces and find themselves a tolerable sound.