Lets not deny reality... The first, 87th and other posts contained what is apparently called empirical evidence, testimony evidence of the senses drawing from experience. How would you account for the experience described in post 87? Why were two acts horrible sound and one was pristine? Maybe you are looking for objective measurements and not empirical evidence? Digital presets, glamour of volume & subs, lack of objectivity and experience...you think everyone should just comply?Ok boomer
Nah...there are lots of great sounding live acts out there. I don't think anyone has the empirical evidence to claim otherwise.
I think things are getting better in general.
More knowledge, better gear, better understanding of acoustics...I could go on.
Of course, I can't prove anything either.
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Concerned About Where Live Sound Is Headed
- Thread starter bucephylus
- Start date
Anyone with the physical strength to twist a knob or punch a button can call themselves a "sound man". What sounds they produce ... well ...
This is true. I was at a local venue recently to see a band. The person behind the board was clearly not a tech. He was an employee of the house who had been assigned the job of riding faders that night. He had absolutely no idea what to do when feedback started on one channel. At one point I came very close to jumping up and helping him out, but I did not. He ended up turning down the entire mix, which got rid of the feedback, but messed up the sound in other ways.
My recent run-ins with soundmen either playing or going to concerts have been a mixed bag. One gig I did the bass and drums overpowered the guitars and keys which was sad because those players were stellar. Another gig I did was way too loud, but the overall mix was good - instruments could be heard clearly.
A heavy metal concert I went to at a local club was godawful loud and, even with earplugs, hard to distinguish between instruments - except the drums. This was Amenra, Voivod, and YOB - three very disparate bands using the same stage equipment. Similar sound equipment in all places. It's not the technology, it's the people.
A heavy metal concert I went to at a local club was godawful loud and, even with earplugs, hard to distinguish between instruments - except the drums. This was Amenra, Voivod, and YOB - three very disparate bands using the same stage equipment. Similar sound equipment in all places. It's not the technology, it's the people.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
s0c9
Supporting Member
I have to disagree.. Separation comes from each musician knowing where their instrument fits in the sonic landscape and adjusting the tone/timbre of their gear accordingly. THIS is a rarity in my experience.
In the average room one doesn't need reverb (unless for a special effect) on bass or guitar amps. If needed in a really small room, FOH can add a bit. In a hotel ballroom or large room.. there is NO need for it, but I get fed it all the time! Dynamics are the ebb and flow of the song! Still necessary, but dynamics are not going to fix a crappy stage sound.
THIS I DO agree with +100%. Experienced musicians KNOW this and know where they fit. Keys don't stomp on bass. Bass doesn't punch LF to muffle the kick, and the FOH guy knows how to make the best of GOOD signals s/he's being fed!
Ok boomer
Somebody has learned a new insult!
Nah...there are lots of great sounding live acts out there. I don't think anyone has the empirical evidence to claim otherwise.
I think things are getting better in general.
More knowledge, better gear, better understanding of acoustics...I could go on.
Of course, I can't prove anything either.
I don't see the OP as saying there AREN'T lots of great sounding live acts out there. He WAS saying, however, that lots of great playing is getting obscured by bad mixes. Both statements can be true. Most of the big acts I've seen over the last decade (Bonnie Raitt, Tom Petty, Eagles, Jimmy Buffet, Steely Dan, Mark Knopfler ) have been mixed decently, some exquisitely (Raitt, Steely Dan). For me it's been smaller acts in local venues that (I speculate) don't have their own sound engineer and are reliant on local mixers who may belong cult of the kick drum being twice as loud as everything else.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
I have to disagree.. Separation comes from each musician knowing where their instrument fits in the sonic landscape and adjusting the tone/timbre of their gear accordingly. THIS is a rarity in my experience.
In the average room one doesn't need reverb (unless for a special effect) on bass or guitar amps. If needed in a really small room, FOH can add a bit. In a hotel ballroom or large room.. there is NO need for it, but I get fed it all the time! Dynamics are the ebb and flow of the song! Still necessary, but dynamics are not going to fix a crappy stage sound.
THIS I DO agree with +100%. Experienced musicians KNOW this and know where they fit. Keys don't stomp on bass. Bass doesn't punch LF to muffle the kick, and the FOH guy knows how to make the best of GOOD signals s/he's being fed!
It's two separate issues. Musicians being aware of the others,has always been an issue. But mixes have definitely evolved - generally not in a good way.
I've noticed weirdness in live mixes for years. On the few occasions when I do the mixing, I have noticed the culprits to be boomy bass and cacophonous highs. Solution every time: pull them back and accentuate towards the middle. Obviously, every room isn't the same, but it seems to me that sound people in unfamiliar rooms often try to jam their 'standard' trim into a space where it will not succeed.
Once my wife and I were so disappointed with the sound from a touring national act at a local symphony hall, that we wrote a letter to the venue's management.
It was plain as day that the mix was too freaking loud. How a so-called professional did not hear that is totally beyond me. Common sense should be the coin of the realm in live sound, not dogma. It's a very organic process.
Once my wife and I were so disappointed with the sound from a touring national act at a local symphony hall, that we wrote a letter to the venue's management.
It was plain as day that the mix was too freaking loud. How a so-called professional did not hear that is totally beyond me. Common sense should be the coin of the realm in live sound, not dogma. It's a very organic process.
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I have to disagree.. Separation comes from each musician knowing where their instrument fits in the sonic landscape and adjusting the tone/timbre of their gear accordingly. THIS is a rarity in my experience.
In the average room one doesn't need reverb (unless for a special effect) on bass or guitar amps. If needed in a really small room, FOH can add a bit. In a hotel ballroom or large room.. there is NO need for it, but I get fed it all the time! Dynamics are the ebb and flow of the song! Still necessary, but dynamics are not going to fix a crappy stage sound.
THIS I DO agree with +100%. Experienced musicians KNOW this and know where they fit. Keys don't stomp on bass. Bass doesn't punch LF to muffle the kick, and the FOH guy knows how to make the best of GOOD signals s/he's being fed!
I mixed a showcase for college entertainment buyers back in 1998 or 1999 with multiple bands from all over the country. Everyone used the same backline and I mixed all of the bands. It was in a nice room and we were using a state of the art (at the time) Meyer MSL4/650P system driven by a Midas XL3 and a rack of high end outboard gear. Remember FX racks and large format analog desks?
Anyway, at one point in the showcase a really, really tight band who all had their sounds and volumes well sorted played, followed by a very muscially similar act who did not and weren't very tight. A song or two into the latter band, the event coordinator ran up to me looking a bit panicky wondering what had happened to the sound because the former band had sounded so good. I asked him what was the only variable that changed and he said "the band... oh..." as the look of realization came over his face. Literally the only thing that changed was the band and the mix took a dive because of it. It was a real lightbulb moment for him. So yeah, bad sound is often reflective of bad source material. This happens at least as often as the opposite situation in my experience.
I've been involved in live sound for over 25 years and I don't feel that much has changed in terms of quality of mixes over that time. Lead kick drum at the expense of everything else was a problem in the 90s too. I did quite a bit of systems engineering on large concert PAs in those days and I knew that a band was going to sound fecal if their mix engineer A. Came in with a bad attitude and complained about the PA/console/room; B. Hacked away at the graphic EQs despite the system being properly tuned, usually pulling out all the midrange. C. wanted a comp or gate inserted on every input. The engineers that kept it simple and came in with a professional attitude almost always got good mixes. The EQ hackers were the funniest. They'd hack and scoop out all the mids, which makes for a friggin great kick sound but then complain that they couldn't get the vocals in the mix...
Sometimes big acts hire non-musical family members to mix FOH. Usually with bad results.
EDIT: "in those days"
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I can see where you are coming. I still think the "evidence" in this thread is more anecdotal... and in a forum like this it's more a case of preaching to the choir... and nostalgia is a factor too.
But hey I could be wrong. And I do recognise that there is a modern trend with huge, all-devouring lows.
Still, I remain optimistic because it makes more sense to me.
It's even happening at Churches, across America, too.
I now sit in the very back of the church, because the unbaffled/no sound enclosure drums, are killing everything.
To combat this, they turned everything else up.
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Somebody has learned a new insult!
I don't see the OP as saying there AREN'T lots of great sounding live acts out there. He WAS saying, however, that lots of great playing is getting obscured by bad mixes. Both statements can be true. Most of the big acts I've seen over the last decade (Bonnie Raitt, Tom Petty, Eagles, Jimmy Buffet, Steely Dan, Mark Knopfler ) have been mixed decently, some exquisitely (Raitt, Steely Dan). For me it's been smaller acts in local venues that (I speculate) don't have their own sound engineer and are reliant on local mixers who may belong cult of the kick drum being twice as loud as everything else.
I hope you noticed the winking emoji. It was not a serious attempt at an insult.
But hey... maybe things are different here in Copenhagen. I have attended so many great sounding smaller shows lately where I have been floored by how great the sound is.
I'm not saying this was the case here but I have been in the situation where a band was 110dB off the stage all by themselves with just stage gear and monitors, so the house had to be louder than that to keep up. I was often keenly aware that it was too loud but kind of stuck between being too loud and the audience not being able to hear the vocals. There were occasions where I could prevail upon bands to turn down but plenty of occasions where that either fell on deaf ears (so to speak) or it wasn't my place to demand that (think national/touring acts). And there are definitely times where a much too loud mix does indeed fall right at the feet of the person behind the desk.
s0c9
Supporting Member
True.. I argued against removing the drum cage at one church I freelance[d] at... because of the impact to the mix. "They" decided it would be a better "experience" for the congregation.
I said it would be a better experience for the hearing aid people!
I no longer work there!
Some large ballrooms with tray ceilings can play havoc with sound.
I've been going to concerts and such since the 70's. There has always been a great deal of variability in the quality of sound at such things. Incompetence will always produce lousy sound, but the good concerts (which seem to be more frequent nowadays) are, in my opinion, much better than they were back in the 70's. The quality of PA gear, and the knowledge and tools to set it up well, are far better then they were decades ago.
Kind of stale by now, actually
Winking Face Emoji
Here you can read about the meaning of the winking smiley; it provides context and suggests that a comment has elements of irony in it. Thus it seems trivial to comment that the insult is stale when the emoji itself implies that I am aware of it - and that I am just yanking OP's chain. Get it?
You use an ordinary smilie which can either mean that you are happy or passive aggressive. I hope the former. Have a nice day
Oops...another cryptic emoji!
