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Concerned About Where Live Sound Is Headed

#121
micguy said:
I've been going to concerts and such since the 70's. There has always been a great deal of variability in the quality of sound at such things. Incompetence will always product lousy sound, but the good concerts (which seem to be more frequent nowadays) are, in my opinion, much better than they were back in the 70's. The quality of PA gear, and the knowledge and tools to set it up well, are far better then they were decades ago.
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I tend to agree with this but then I am also old enough to remember shows in echoey venues that were never designed with acoustics in mind, back in the day. Stadiums and civic centers and auditoriums with lots of reflective surfaces combined with not so great gear to create less than optimal sound conditions.

I think that today you have far less of those things. Even stadiums are more optimized for acoustics because they are designed with the understanding that those things will happen there. They weren't back in the day.

Gear has made things easier, too. The quality we get at reasonable price points really wasn't obtainable 35 years ago.

But you will always have inexperienced humans at various stages of the music-making process.
 
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#122
LBS-bass said:
I tend to agree with this but then I am also old enough to remember shows in echoey venues that were never designed with acoustics in mind, back in the day. Stadiums and civic centers and auditoriums with lots of reflective surfaces combined with not so great gear to create less than optimal sound conditions.

I think that today you have far less of those things. Even stadiums are more optimized for acoustics because they are designed with the understanding that those things will happen there. They weren't back in the day.
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Decades ago, if a show was in a hall with highly reflective surfaces, you just had a sucky concert - there wasn't much you could do. Nowadays, although it doesn't completely solve the issue, a well tuned line array will focus the sound so that far less of it echoes around the place. Sunday, I went to church in a place that would have sounded horrible 30 years ago - big, curved roof, etc. The building is at least 100 years old - not built for acoustics at all. It was....pretty good - the sound wasn't perfect, but the room certainly didn't get in the way of the music.
 
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#123
It's weird how things change. PA amplifiers are so much more powerful than they were in the 70's, and subs go much lower. So you have the potential to sound much better or worse now. I agree that boom-sizzle is heard way too much these days. We might had it in the old days too, but thanks to technilogy, now the boom is boomier, and the sizzle sizzlier.

The loudest concert I ever attended was Ted Nugent and Damn Yankees in NYC, circa 1990. omg. Outdoors, next to the water, and still freakishly loud. Like ears stuffed with water-soaked paper towels and fingers over the earholes and still painfully loud. I wish I had known about plugs and hearing loss ten.

The best sound I've heard in a large venue was (believe it or not) the first Monsters of Rock tour, in Chicago, 1988. The PA speakers looked like a huge wall of home stereo speakers instead of huge bins. I have no idea what they were, but the sound was amazing, clear and defined, loud but not overly so.

Peter Gabriel (I think it was the So tour) also sounded great (man what an emotional show!).
 
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#124
I'd agree with B's assertion: I think a generation raised on EDM, rap, and all of it pushed thru earbuds has no clue of what good stereo used to sound like, and live sound is reflecting what they're used to, that hard, digital, 'hard' highs and mids profile.

It's no wonder in a world driven by downloads into a cellphone with BS earbuds. The days of building a great stereo home system and listening to excellent mixes on CD or vinyl are over, and that sound and tone are as old as me . . . . . FOH has come so very far, but like anything else, really good gear is easier to screw up than simple products, and live sound is mastered by a very few.
 
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#125
JW56789 said:
I'd agree with B's assertion: I think a generation raised on EDM, rap, and all of it pushed thru earbuds has no clue of what good stereo used to sound like, and live sound is reflecting what they're used to, that hard, digital, 'hard' highs and mids profile.

It's no wonder in a world driven by downloads into a cellphone with BS earbuds. The days of building a great stereo home system and listening to excellent mixes on CD or vinyl are over, and that sound and tone are as old as me . . . . . FOH has come so very far, but like anything else, really good gear is easier to screw up than simple products, and live sound is mastered by a very few.
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I just wish they'd just turn down the subs a little so the mid-top end is more intelligible. That all this old guy wants. My hearing is fine btw :)

When I do mixing on the little systems around me. My first thing to do is turn down or even off the subs. Get my top boxes or flyers sounding good then bring my subs back in to complement the rest :)
 
#126
I've seen Rush four times, and twice in the same venue. The first time, they sounded terrible (much like you described the band you saw). My guess is that the sound guy pushed the subs too much and didn't EQ the channels properly. The second time, however, the sound guy was a total pro and they sounded fantastic. There are many (too many) bad sound guys out there, and even the big-time bands land one now and then (unfortunately).
 
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#128
MonetBass said:
I've seen Rush four times, and twice in the same venue. The first time, they sounded terrible (much like you described the band you saw). My guess is that the sound guy pushed the subs too much and didn't EQ the channels properly. The second time, however, the sound guy was a total pro and they sounded fantastic. There are many (too many) bad sound guys out there, and even the big-time bands land one now and then (unfortunately).
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I've seen RUSH 6 times and every time the sound was pristine. Their music practically demands it. That sucks they were off that night.
 
#129
In mixing sound -- whether live or in the studio, I've found that "less is more." It's a finesse thing that many seem to miss the concept of. Yes, by all means, turn on the subs. But many times the room will not allow fundamental sound waves to develop, because they're too small. Everyone thinks that, because the fundamental isn't developed, that sheer volume will fix it. It won't. So use the subs, but let them add breadth to the overall mix rather than push volume.
 
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#130
Auspuff said:
It's even happening at Churches, across America, too.

I now sit in the very back of the church, because the unbaffled/no sound enclosure drums, are killing everything.

To combat this, they turned everything else up.
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Getting everyone with a volume control or drumsticks to comprehend that a little goes a long way and encouraging them to find a proper, dynamic balance for the room has never been more of a challenge. Gaudy power output has become too cheap and commonplace.

Musicians too often get controlled by their instrument rather than play their instrument with control—as if somehow the player's imperative is to showcase every watt or hit it with all the force at your disposal. The deal is when when you play at a smart volume, it is only then that you're maximizing the power, instead of casting it about carelessly.

I've experienced numerous epiphanies regarding this very thing. I'll bet that the more I effectively control my stage volume, the smarter and more experienced I seem. Only rarely does anyone ask me to change my volume.

Discretion is the better part of volume.
 
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#131
Saw ZZ Top at Mohegan Sun a couple of years ago, sound was worst I ever heard, mid-range hum all night. I still laugh (to myself) when I see the smiley EQ on PA setups(was taught in the 70s to everybody for some unknown reason.)

When I run sound I use EV and X32 and run it flat, if I nee EQ I EQ the channel not the mains, I also biamp in the mixer so I can adjust if needed. I keep getting asked to do sound (while raising my prices) so something might be right.
 
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#132
Phil508 said:
Saw ZZ Top at Mohegan Sun a couple of years ago, sound was worst I ever heard, mid-range hum all night. I still laugh (to myself) when I see the smiley EQ on PA setups(was taught in the 70s to everybody for some unknown reason.)

When I run sound I use EV and X32 and run it flat, if I nee EQ I EQ the channel not the mains, I also biamp in the mixer so I can adjust if needed. I keep getting asked to do sound (while raising my prices) so something might be right.
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Far as I'm concerned, all you need EQ for is to balance the room to minimize unwanted resonances and feedback. EQ is not "tone control."
 
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#133
Carl Hillman said:
It seems like the majority of people mixing FOH are mainly concerned with the bass drum/drum sound. They want to, and are inordinately proud of, producing a kick drum that sounds like a cannon going off. ...really impressive, but very often not appropriate for the music.
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Someone told me about watching soundcheck for Reverend Horton Heat, where first they made sure the lead vocal sounded good. Then they built everything up around that, always making sure that the vocal was the primary focus.
I'm so tired of FOH only worrying about how the drums sound.
 
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#134
Auspuff said:
It's even happening at Churches, across America, too.

I now sit in the very back of the church, because the unbaffled/no sound enclosure drums, are killing everything.

To combat this, they turned everything else up.
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I just recently went to a church service that an old friend (female) had been asking me for 8 or more years to come to. They had a full acoustic drum set up behind the proverbial plexiglass wall with a drummer that only seemed to have one level - (hit as hard as you can). The guitar and vocals were so muted that I could not even hear one of the female singers. And although the drums were not mic'd, the kick was so loud that I felt a bit queasy the whole time they were playing. Everything was way too loud for the size of the room which actually has very good acoustics. After the service I asked if I could have a look at their sound system. When I got to the mixer all of the EQ sliders above 125K were turned all the way down.

I made a few changes to the mixer settings, but nobody was willing to stick around to let me see if the changes I made were OK so I had to go back last week before the service while they were going over the songs for the morning just to check it out and adjust as necessary. Although the clarity was better I still had to crank everything up to overcome the loud drums. I told the drummer that maybe he should check into using an electronic set so that they didn't have to be so loud. Then the pastor says "I like the drums". I won't be going back there again unless they actually want to make changes and want my help to set it up. There was a girl playing an Ovation 12 string guitar that was not tuned properly either and sounded like crap, and I just won't put up with that no matter who is playing or where...
 
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#135
RV Driver said:
Far as I'm concerned, all you need EQ for is to balance the room to minimize unwanted resonances and feedback. EQ is not "tone control."
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#137
any moron with decent credit can buy a PA ..!! doesn't mean they have an 'ear' for it ... and/or any knowledge of how stuff Should sound all over the room ...?!?!?

I've worked with lots of folks who like to buy 'stuff' ... yet never ever read a manual or figure out how their new toyz actually work ...

i do agree that the tale is wagging the dog ... but = not on my watch ..!!
 
#138
DonBorelli said:
I hope you noticed the winking emoji. It was not a serious attempt at an insult.

But hey... maybe things are different here in Copenhagen. I have attended so many great sounding smaller shows lately where I have been floored by how great the sound is.
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I didn't notice that it was winking--sorry, my bad. I'm a bit of a noob in parsing emojis. It still looks a bit passive aggressive to me, but I could certainly be misreading. Even with emojis, kidding, sarcasm and irony are tricky on forums. Specially for us boomers.

It could very well be that things are better in Copenhagen. It might be a US trend, for all I know. I spend some time in Norway, but have only taken one concert there lately, and it was a celtic band--strings and whistles, no kick drums.
 

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