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Concerned About Where Live Sound Is Headed

That could be; but, I doubt that for two reasons. First, these are national level corporate gigs with resources to higher well qualified staff. Second, I am hearing this on multiple occasions. I really don't think it is a trend of inexperience vs a trend of intent.
I guess we have to place a definition on inexperience. Sure maybe the guy can make the mix sound like his car stereo, but that doesn't necessarily qualify as a good mix, and if he is good at what he does, he should know how to handle genres other than his personal favorite.
 
I believe it's a case of the sound man not knowing what he's doing and in this day and age, the overuse of subwoofers, now that they are common place and readily available.

I see and hear all the time too much content in the subwoofers that shouldn't be there, that muddies everything else horribly.

This x1000. And thus, the rhetorical question, has digital technology created a monster? E.g. keyboard "bass" going down to what, say 1 Hz, "just because you can do it."

Is it musical? Ok...I'll get off my own lawn...after all, "what is music?"
 
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This x1000. And thus, the rhetorical question, has digital technology created a monster? E.g. keyboard "bass" going down to what, say 1 Hz, "just because you can do it."

Is it musical? Ok...I'll get off my own lawn...after all, "what is music?"

Hey man, 1Hz is plenty musical. I was just tapping my foot at about 1Hz during this solo section I'm practicing.
 
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Further, I don't believe I'm some kind of hobbyist warrior with a keyboard. At least I don't think I am. I'm still a performing musician, and just remarking on progressions of the way things are being done. But, if it makes some of you feel bigger to make me little, have at it.
I think you have very valid concerns. I've found I can come pretty close to estimating the age of the guy mixing, just based on what I'm hearing.
 
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Sometimes you can't fix stupid.
My wife and I went to see a famous older funk player a couple months ago.
I had never been to this venue and looked it up ahead of time. They list all their sound equipment on their website. First class gear.
The night of show the sound guy had the mix twice as was tolerable for human hearing. I mean unbearable. It hurt to be in the room it was so loud.
Dude ruined the whole show with that foolishness.
Reminded me of a Def Leppard concert in the 80's where I nearly lost my hearing for a couple days.
I gave them a bad review online over it.
With what little experience I've had running the digital sound board at our church I could have done a better job than that hack.
 
I blame the sound guy. There are very few good sound men
in my area based on gigs we use them on. Too loud, too bassy to the extent
of we could hardly hear ourselves on stage.
The have a blue tooth pad mixer which gives them a huge advantage to
mix properly but does not happen.
Luckily 2 FOH do a great job when available.
I heard Little Feat in concert once, they were so badly mixed
I could hardly make out the tunes.
Neville brothers came on after them and noticed a different sound guy
and they sounded great with the same PA and back line as Little Feat.
 
1) "Pro" musicians have "their sound". They insist on sending the sound guy what THEY prefer. Often it's pure MUD coming from the bass because that's the bass player's favorite warm fuzzy fat round bedroom tone. And often that sounds like garbage in a live mix. Yep, I've heard it before. "A good sound guy can take any tone and make it sound great in a mix." That's pure BS. It's often a screeching mess coming from the guitar. Never mind that guitar players are stomping on stuff all night and sound COMPLETELY different from song to song. Just about the time you get them a sonic niche carved out, they go from fat and round to thin and piercing. And don't even get me started on keys players.
It's far from the pro's. Most of them I've worked with are happy to work with you, if YOU work with them!
It's the little wannabee juvenile pro's who insist on a mic'd cab (their GC guy told 'em it will sound KILLER!) have a horrible sound, tweak all night at ear-splitting stage levels - matched by the guitar player!
Yeah, very stereotypical, but there ARE good folks on both sides of the stage with enough experience to KNOW what both sides need, and work toward that goal!
 
I thought to myself...
Angelique Kidjo is awesome and she should have a killer band... check #1
She is doing music from Remain In Light by Talking Heads. One of my fav albums of all time...check
Carnegie hall... check.
Should be a great show
3 checks = must see so i drove from MD to NYC for the show and took the wife and kid.
Ponied up money for really good seats and a hotel room.
David Byrne even showed up and did one song.

The mix ruined it for me. All kick drum and Angeliques vocals.
everything else was all blended together in a muddy mess.
Couldn't hear the bass player at all.
How can you do that music and not have an in your face bass sound?

Still not over it prolly cause i was looking forward to it so much.
 
Had one of those Toys For Tots thing here last year. Sounded like crap. Too much stage volume (of course), but the sound guy insisted on pumping 12,000 watts through 50 subs.
All I heard was an earthquake.
Plenty of sound people have not mastered their digital board. This guy was one of those. I know him. All his shows are marginal. He's in love with subs and watts.
 
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It's not the gear. Not at all.

It's not the room. I can make a great band sound pretty stinking good in even the worst acoustic conditions. They may not sound good everywhere in the room. But from the stage to the board they'll sound fine.

It's the humans.

1) "Pro" musicians have "their sound". They insist on sending the sound guy what THEY prefer. Often it's pure MUD coming from the bass because that's the bass player's favorite warm fuzzy fat round bedroom tone. And often that sounds like garbage in a live mix. Yep, I've heard it before. "A good sound guy can take any tone and make it sound great in a mix." That's pure BS. It's often a screeching mess coming from the guitar. Never mind that guitar players are stomping on stuff all night and sound COMPLETELY different from song to song. Just about the time you get them a sonic niche carved out, they go from fat and round to thin and piercing. And don't even get me started on keys players.

2) The sound guys/gals themselves. They think they are doing the audience a favor by making the live mix sound like a car stereo loud enough to rattle windows as they roll down the street. Nothing but boom. It's awful. Sure, my mixes sound "live". But that doesn't mean they knock you over with bass.

Nope. It's not the equipment, which is getting ridiculously more clear, light, and loud every day. And I can make most any PA sound fine from the speakers to about 40 feet out in almost any room.

It's the people. Start there.
Yes, it is the people. I had this argument 25 years ago with my talent. I said, "Trust me to provide appropriate tone and volume." They kept pumping the volume and stomping pedals all night. It's really hard to herd cats, especially in a dirty acoustic environment.

But it's also the guys behind the boards. The sound guy is the conductor and arranger of an orchestral concept. No one seems to understand that blend, balance, timbre are all the responsibility of the sound tech. If he's not conceptualizing the orchestrated sound he wants first, then using the gear to act as intermediary between the talent and his own ears in order to achieve that concept, he's gonna get unconceptualized sound, or what we call "mud." He's not there just to "ride gain," he's there to create a tonal concept and then bring it to life.

That may be a little esoteric for some, but it's the truth. Tech schools need to teach music and aesthetics before they teach the engineering.
 
With the gear available these days it's never been easier to get a good sound. What I have noticed though is that in my area the older sound guys have adapted to modern technology and pull a good sound and a lot of the younger guys set that "smiley curve" EQ on everything and it's all subs and sizzle and just crap in the middle.

DJ's do the same and will look at the back of the speaker and turn up until the limiter light is on even if it's way too loud in the room that's what they set their volume by. We had one earlier this year and the function coordinator said "thank heavens the band is up next, I can't take any more of this".

No fault of the gear here but you need someone that actually knows how to use it and understands sound. We did a wedding recently, I used one sub and four top boxes around the venue, the sound was fine and the sub was not working hard. Some venues have too many subs and they are turned up way too loud so you just get a blanket of thick, gooey sludge but you don't get actual sound, we need more education in sound engineering, way more.
 
I'll agree, the quality of live sound seems to be dropping. Not sure what the causes are, but it's definitely noticeable.
Sound people have fallen in love with subs. Same way some bands feel it's necessary to fill 256 tracks for every recording, live sound is pushing the frequencies that were not heard a generation ago.
 
My wife and I attended a major Tucson fund raiser this weekend. The entertainment was a top flight corporate band called The Midnight Special out of Hollywood. I take this act to be pretty representative of where live soundstages are headed.

The band was TIGHT. Four outstanding front voices, excellent backing players.

The show sounded like utter garbage. Of course, the stage was ampless. FOH was two elevated 4x arrays and two sub woofers on the floor on each side of the stage. The mixing boards looked like NASA control centers. The technology was there. The sound was awful, and in a way that is concerning. Basically, there was a massive hole from about 90Hz up to about 275 Hz. So, what was projected was ear piercing levels of mainly drums burying everything and prerecorded horn tracks (no horn section). Or, maybe the keys had the the horn patches. Sounded like tracks.

Anyhow, drums were burying the vocals, chordal instruments were mud, and bass was a drone with no content above 90 Hz. Sad to say, this isn't the first time I've heard this kind of live mix. In fact, it seems to be becoming more prevalent. And, I can't tell if it's happening because the modern PA's encourage it, or because the sound engineers are being taught to target that kind of mix, or some of both, or something else.

In any case, the classic Motown stuff does NOT play well in that mix. No groove whatsoever in the FOH, even though it was clear the band members were grooving in their IEM channels. The mix literally destroyed the material.

Some folks dance to it, because they had more than a few and what the heck, they're out for a good time. But, seriously, most hated the levels more than anything; and the fact that the mix obscured the good stuff going on didn't help at all.

Not my band, and glad I don't have to perform in that gig. Not doing the music any favors, that's for sure. Perhaps, I'm too old school.:cool: But, it seems to me that we have the cart driving the horse; the technology is usurping the music. I think that's sad. The crowd isn't impressed. As a musician, I'm not impressed. I think it has gotten bad for the music.

Yup. Listen to much Hip-Hop? How about the mix on commercials on sport channels like FanDuel. The bass is so deep, so loud my TV sounds like it's farting.

IMO the bass parts on a lot of today's music is less a bass part and more of a tuned bass drum. Think of a symphonic 54" tuned bass drum. Yup, that's where it's headed.