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Confederate Flag over amps. Please no racism!

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#81
powellmacaque said:
Any suggestions? PLEASE don't turn this political/racial/social. I don't care what your views are, and I'm sorry if this is a touchy subject to some, but I just wanna know what I could do to avoid being seen as a bigot by others.
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I think you are very confused. How can you "not care what (our) views are", but then ask for our advice on how to avoid being seen as a bigot - while simultaneously exploiting one of the most virulently racist symbols in American history?

Whether or not you can appreciate that - whether or not you can even perceive that - is your own business. But to deliberately align yourself with bandmates who apparently share this same social/cultural/political blind spot, all the while pleading for others to not associate you with this loaded symbol that you all have deliberately chosen to exploit is, to me, the very essence of naivete.

I personally think you need to 1) study some history, and 2) start taking some personal responsibility for your choices... :eyebrow:

MM
 
#82
MysticMichael said:
I think you are very confused. How can you "not care what (our) views are", but then ask for our advice on how to avoid being seen as a bigot - while simultaneously exploiting one of the most virulently racist symbols in American history?

Whether or not you can appreciate that - whether or not you can even perceive that - is your own business. But to deliberately align yourself with bandmates who apparently share this same social/cultural/political blind spot, all the while pleading for others to not associate you with this loaded symbol that you all have deliberately chosen to exploit is, to me, the very essence of naivete.

I personally think you need to 1) study some history, and 2) start taking some personal responsibility for your choices... :eyebrow:

MM
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I do care about seeing seen as a bigot, which is why I asked. In my area, the flag is commonplace and nobody makes a big deal about it. I wanted to know how it was seen outside my little circle.

I do read history, and not public school propaganda either. It's a hobby.

I was displaying my lack of care for being labeled a poser or carpetbagger, not for being a racist.

Look I've reached the conclusion; it's going to be Bonnie Blue and Florida's state flag. As far as I'm concerned this thread can die, I got all the responses necessary and I think my decision was wise. Thanks to all who helped, and if you'd like to debate my views on history, the south, or punk please send me a PM and I'll e happy to entertain intelligent discussion.
 
#83
Hang the flag. I'm not a racist, I'm a Nebraskan. I really don't understand why people are so worried about offending others. After all this is America, if they don't like it, they don't have to watch or listen. Personally, if I saw a bass rig with a Rebel flag hanging from it, I'd say..."The bass player has a rebel flag hanging from his bass rig, I guess I'm going to have to go up on stage and ask him what kind of cabinets he's using".
 
#84
billoetjen said:
Didn't think I'd be back here, but I am.


Great to hear the reflections from across the border.
We need more of it.

Are you seriously comparing the Cross of St. George with the Stars and Bars?
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As a flag that has been co-opted by those with far right political views, it's a fair comparison. Nobody's claiming the Cross of St George and the Stars and Bars have the same sort of history or anything, but there is a broad similarity between the connotations discussed here and groups such as the EDL etc. I'd dearly love to reclaim our flag from the ignorant and intolerant minority, but if I flew our flag off my amp there's every chance I'd be labelled a racist by equally ignorant people in the audience, (or lynched if we were north of the border!) That said, St George's day recently saw a real resurgence of people proud to fly our flag and the upcoming World Cup willl doubtless see more fo the same. Here's hoping!
 
#86
chrisisnotevil said:
I'd dearly love to reclaim our flag from the ignorant and intolerant minority, but if I flew our flag off my amp there's every chance I'd be labelled a racist by equally ignorant people in the audience, (or lynched if we were north of the border!)
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Congratulations on implying that people in Scotland murder bands from England in a sentence where you also say you're against ignorance and intolerance.
 
#87
billoetjen said:
Didn't think I'd be back here, but I am.


Great to hear the reflections from across the border.
We need more of it.

Are you seriously comparing the Cross of St. George with the Stars and Bars?
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Hey not to split hairs, but the confederate flag I'm talking about is not the stars and bars, but the naval Jack and battle flag. Stars and bars looks more like the Texan flag with 13 stars.

The confederate battle flag (which wasn't even too universally adapted) is actually modeled after St. Andrews cross.

Just didn't want you misinforming any of your students.
 
#88
chrisisnotevil said:
As a flag that has been co-opted by those with far right political views, it's a fair comparison. Nobody's claiming the Cross of St George and the Stars and Bars have the same sort of history or anything, but there is a broad similarity between the connotations discussed here and groups such as the EDL etc. I'd dearly love to reclaim our flag from the ignorant and intolerant minority, but if I flew our flag off my amp there's every chance I'd be labelled a racist by equally ignorant people in the audience, (or lynched if we were north of the border!) That said, St George's day recently saw a real resurgence of people proud to fly our flag and the upcoming World Cup willl doubtless see more fo the same. Here's hoping!
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However, the difference is that in YOUR case it is still actually YOUR flag, the confederate flag Is NOT the American flag and is not a symbol for anything other than a dark part of our collective past. The confederate flag is an old antiquated symbol and doesn't NEED to be "taken back" because it isn't being "misused" by anyone, in MY part of the country the very LARGE majority of people who fly the confedrate flag do it to express their racism, plain and simple. To me, based on the culture I live in, wanting to "reclaim the confederate flag" sounds roughly similar to wanting to "reclaim the white robe and hood."
 
#89
GaryM said:
Congratulations on implying that people in Scotland murder bands from England in a sentance where you also say you're against ignorance and intolerance.
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We've never been murdered yet, I just wouldn't fancy my chances with a St George's Cross in tow. You do realise I'm just trying to inject some humour into an otherwise po faced thread, yes? :D I'd sooner play in Glasgow than Manchester given the choice any day.

baalroo said:
However, the difference is that in YOUR case it is still actually YOUR flag, the BaS is NOT the American flag. The confederate flag is an old antiquated symbol and doesn't NEED to be "taken back" because it isn't being "misused" by anyone, in MY part of the country the very LARGE majority of people who fly the confedrate flag do it to express their racism, plain and simple. To me, based on the culture I live in, wanting to "reclaim the confederate flag" sounds roughly similar to wanting to "reclaim the white robe and hood."
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Can't argue with that, I'm not in a position to comment on the BaS.
 
#90
Certainly passionate views on both sides. To some its an image of oppression and at the same time others a symbol of their heritage. Interesting how a mere symbol can create such visceral emotions. The Swastika is certainly another such symbol.

The key question is "Is it necessary?" "Why?"

While we are generally "free" to speak our minds in this country (short of libel and slander)however, we are not "free" from the ramifications of our words or actions.

The question the OP needs to ascertain is whether that is a symbol they wish to be associated with and understand what consequences associating with it may bring. While several on here have felt the need to question the OP's character either directly or indirectly, the answer to the question posed can only be answered from within ones self!

I suspect the mere fact the question was asked means the OP knows whats right for him.
 
#91
chrisisnotevil said:
We've never been murdered yet, I just wouldn't fancy my chances with a St George's Cross in tow. You do realise I'm just trying to inject some humour into an otherwise po faced thread, yes? :D I'd sooner play in Glasgow than Manchester given the choice any day.
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Ah, no worries then. I took you (semi) seriously because dissociating the English flag from racists like the English Defence League (and the UK flag from the BNP and so on) is a serious issue.
 
#93
One of the issues the OP will have to consider is that, as evidenced by the responses in this thread, the same symbol can have different meanings to different people. What you "say" by using a particular symbol may not be what people "hear" when they see it.

Any statement of the form "symbol X has meaning Y" is nonsense unless followed by the words "to person Z".

Practically, this means "who is your intended audience and what will it mean to them?"
 
#94
billoetjen said:
...and so was slavery.


Now I'm convinced that this argument needs to be thrashed out - and publicly.
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Have you ever been south of Syracuse man? The reason I asked wad because I DIDNT know how the symbol was viewed outside rural Florida and the mainstream media (which would call a checkerboard a symbol of racism if given the chance).

You may be a teacher, but you're obviously getting your education from a liberal source. Wanna go to bat with a person who actually knows oth sides and can see it without bias? Try me. But once again, don't talk to me like I'm some conservative that you enjoy pissing on, cuz I'll talk to you like a trendy starbucks hippie. I'm a libertarian, do take that into consideration before you start slinging slurs.
 
#95
UncleFluffy said:
One of the issues the OP will have to consider is that, as evidenced by the responses in this thread, the same symbol can have different meanings to different people. What you "say" by using a particular symbol may not be what people "hear" when they see it.
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Absolutely. From what's been said in this thread, it looks like the Confederate battle flag and "Bonnie Blue" flag could mean any of the following, depending on the audience: racism, rebellion, slavery, The Dukes of Hazzard, Somalia. So you'll have to weigh up the interpretations that different people will make and decide whether the "positives" are enough compared to the "negatives".
 
#97
I live in Va, and those stupid flags are everywhere. Say its not racist all you want, all I know is that a lot of racist hilljack 'tards love that flag.

IMO you must stay completely true to yourself no matter what - thats what punk is. You wanna be truly nonconformist, make your own symbol, with its own meaning, and put that on everything, real punks don't define themselves relative to anyone else.

Also, in regards to bands using the flag, the most recent to my mind was Pantera, and I have yet to hear someone call them racist.
 
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