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Confederate Flag over amps. Please no racism!
- Thread starter powellmacaque
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Glad you asked.
There are at least a few people engaged in this thread who feel conflicted over this. I take that as a sign that it's baring some deeply buried baggage. I believe that this is exactly the kind of situation in which the power of bigotry gets exposed, and has potential for some powerful learning.
BTW, many Southerners, past and present, who've both embraced and rejected the flag, acknowledge its clear racist connection.
Well he is a liberal.
To keep this slightly on-topic - I hope disagreement with this guy doesn't get me misconstrued as a republican...
So, cards on the table, I'm leaning toward libertarian politically.
I dont see the confedrate flags point, no one alive was around back then. Its a failed nation and how can it be southern pride? pride of failure? but at the same time these "confederates" people are patriotic of the united states of america and live in it? A nazi flag i would see as more prideful for someone. I dont attach racism to a southern flag or hate to a nazi flag , i just see no point of eithier , especially if you were not alive or lived in that nation at the time.
Strange concept to me
Strange concept to me
You guys...keep this intelligent. Polarized politics - while a mainstay in today's media and social landscapes are doing nothing to add to this conversation.
'Liberal', 'Republican', 'Libertarian', 'Conservative'...
...If you look at the dictionary and encyclopaedic definitions of these distinctions, you'll see just how twisted our modern world has become - blinded in many ways.
Thanks, Dr. Cheese, for this reflection:
When the modern world has had some time to really objectively reflect on history (which it hasn't, as previous posters have illustrated perfectly), we will all be certain that the American Civil War was MADE INTO a war against slavery, but was firmly a war for the industrial rule to be the measure.
From southern time (it's too hot to work straight through the day some days outside without breaks and a relaxed pace) to factory time (punch in, punch out, cut and dry, power struggle) to make us oppress ourselves and our neighbours without it being specifically personal. If you don't quite understand yet, just think about how poorly people working for minimum wage are treated - in their jobs and by those they serve. Why do we have this? 'Progress'. So all of you 'progessives' that don't understand why 'conservatives' don't buy your stance - maybe think about that. (If I were to be a part of a Political Party it would be the Green Party of Canada...Google it. It's neither left nor right nor centrist)
I am a Canadian, have strong family ties to New France, Upper Canada, and the colonies. I have Loyalist blood running through my veins as well as strong ties to New England and the beginnings of settlement in North America. The first European people born and baptized here south of Newfoundland were my family. Battles were fought on my family's land. My grandfather was the Dutchman that sold his land for a paltry sum that became a hole in the ground after it became a big pile of rubble on 9/11/01. Though I live up here, that flag IS flown by a number of people. Country music is pretty big in many places, and I live about 20 minutes from the border. Different country, but people are people. If I were 20 minutes from the South I'd have a different perspective, but from my point of view it's really easy to have this issue obstructed from wherever you are.
While the Stars and Bars have been turned into a symbol of intolerance (racism) they've been firmly rooted in the intolerance of foreign oppression. Had the south won the civil war, slavery would have eventually disappeared...maybe it would have taken another 20 years, maybe 50, but it would have disappeared. It's wrong and morality would have eventually prevailed as in time it always does, even if it doesn't seem like it right now to some people.
I'm not personally opposed to the Battle Flag, but I'm also willing to have a discussion about it. Most people that it offends would probably want to avoid speaking with someone with a battle flag - about the battle flag...and many people that use the battle flag as an ignorant symbol of stubbornness would presume I would be 'on their side' - so it's not gonna be on my gear.
So...here's another suggestion...
You're in a southern punk band?
I'd make a grillecover out of the earlier flag in this post and somewhere else on your gear get a copy of this flag
It's not the Union Jack. It's the UEL Flag. The South had ties to England and many loyalists fled south after Independance, and many fled north. Since you're even thinking about hanging a flag on your gear then you're appreciative of your past and Loyalists were certainly oppressed by the North: Beaten, Murdered, Tar and Feathered (which would kill or permanently disfigure(hot tar...think about it)), women raped and lives were destroyed, merely for being honourably appreciative of the privilege that they've been able to attain by coming to this new world, their seas protected by the Crown.
Now...of course there's the Acadian exodus (Cajun Louisiana) that was expressly because of England, so perhaps the UEL flag is best saved for this post on this thread and not put on your gear (After all, I bet you'd have a great time in the swamp), but without getting into it (I agree with American Independence on many accounts, but the transition was far from spotless), it's really up to you to ensure you respect the symbols that you associate yourself with - understand why you're flying flags, understand what you know about yourself and your world and cultivate that properly.
The Anarchy symbol is probably something you'd want to avoid in the south.
I'll put it another way: Do you want to get people fired up to buy more beers or to burn crosses?
Get the gig, get the bar to ask you back, get more gigs, sell more drinks, sell more merch, have more fun, get to tour heavily and get paid...whiskey fires burn brighter than effigies.
'Liberal', 'Republican', 'Libertarian', 'Conservative'...
...If you look at the dictionary and encyclopaedic definitions of these distinctions, you'll see just how twisted our modern world has become - blinded in many ways.
Thanks, Dr. Cheese, for this reflection:
When the modern world has had some time to really objectively reflect on history (which it hasn't, as previous posters have illustrated perfectly), we will all be certain that the American Civil War was MADE INTO a war against slavery, but was firmly a war for the industrial rule to be the measure.
From southern time (it's too hot to work straight through the day some days outside without breaks and a relaxed pace) to factory time (punch in, punch out, cut and dry, power struggle) to make us oppress ourselves and our neighbours without it being specifically personal. If you don't quite understand yet, just think about how poorly people working for minimum wage are treated - in their jobs and by those they serve. Why do we have this? 'Progress'. So all of you 'progessives' that don't understand why 'conservatives' don't buy your stance - maybe think about that. (If I were to be a part of a Political Party it would be the Green Party of Canada...Google it. It's neither left nor right nor centrist)
I am a Canadian, have strong family ties to New France, Upper Canada, and the colonies. I have Loyalist blood running through my veins as well as strong ties to New England and the beginnings of settlement in North America. The first European people born and baptized here south of Newfoundland were my family. Battles were fought on my family's land. My grandfather was the Dutchman that sold his land for a paltry sum that became a hole in the ground after it became a big pile of rubble on 9/11/01. Though I live up here, that flag IS flown by a number of people. Country music is pretty big in many places, and I live about 20 minutes from the border. Different country, but people are people. If I were 20 minutes from the South I'd have a different perspective, but from my point of view it's really easy to have this issue obstructed from wherever you are.
While the Stars and Bars have been turned into a symbol of intolerance (racism) they've been firmly rooted in the intolerance of foreign oppression. Had the south won the civil war, slavery would have eventually disappeared...maybe it would have taken another 20 years, maybe 50, but it would have disappeared. It's wrong and morality would have eventually prevailed as in time it always does, even if it doesn't seem like it right now to some people.
I'm not personally opposed to the Battle Flag, but I'm also willing to have a discussion about it. Most people that it offends would probably want to avoid speaking with someone with a battle flag - about the battle flag...and many people that use the battle flag as an ignorant symbol of stubbornness would presume I would be 'on their side' - so it's not gonna be on my gear.
So...here's another suggestion...
You're in a southern punk band?
I'd make a grillecover out of the earlier flag in this post and somewhere else on your gear get a copy of this flag
It's not the Union Jack. It's the UEL Flag. The South had ties to England and many loyalists fled south after Independance, and many fled north. Since you're even thinking about hanging a flag on your gear then you're appreciative of your past and Loyalists were certainly oppressed by the North: Beaten, Murdered, Tar and Feathered (which would kill or permanently disfigure(hot tar...think about it)), women raped and lives were destroyed, merely for being honourably appreciative of the privilege that they've been able to attain by coming to this new world, their seas protected by the Crown.
Now...of course there's the Acadian exodus (Cajun Louisiana) that was expressly because of England, so perhaps the UEL flag is best saved for this post on this thread and not put on your gear (After all, I bet you'd have a great time in the swamp), but without getting into it (I agree with American Independence on many accounts, but the transition was far from spotless), it's really up to you to ensure you respect the symbols that you associate yourself with - understand why you're flying flags, understand what you know about yourself and your world and cultivate that properly.
The Anarchy symbol is probably something you'd want to avoid in the south.
I'll put it another way: Do you want to get people fired up to buy more beers or to burn crosses?
Get the gig, get the bar to ask you back, get more gigs, sell more drinks, sell more merch, have more fun, get to tour heavily and get paid...whiskey fires burn brighter than effigies.
Question then.
Can bigotry be caused by a "flag or symbol" or is it part of ones personal core values and/or beliefs? One does not take a pill, wear a certain style hat, register with a particular political party or display a symbol and become a "bigot/racist" by osmosis IMHO.
Bigot (noun). One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Whether we care to admit it, we all are "bigoted" in some fashion. It's human nature.
You can have your own views, here's mine:
The southern flag is a symbol of both racism, and a symbol that represents treason. The southern flag was waved by those waging war against their own country, and is not "patriotic" in any way whatsoever.
The southern flag is a symbol of both racism, and a symbol that represents treason. The southern flag was waved by those waging war against their own country, and is not "patriotic" in any way whatsoever.
This is the most punk thread ever, Caring what others thing is not very punk, but you don't care if it is or if its not. You slap those values in the face and don't let a set list of rules tell you what to do. And that my friend is the punkiest thing ever.
Do what you feel is the right thing to do. I am a former active duty United States Marine; and I served my country for you to have that right. This is a great county and you have the right to say what ever and waive whatever flag you want.
People may perceive you as a racist and that is just something that you are going to have to deal with. There were Marines that I served with that had rebel flag tattoos and the Marine Corp had no problem with them. Some people are going to be offended no matter what you do.
For a teacher to go around saying that he hates someone for their beliefs shouldn't be a teacher. I just wanted to put that out there for you sir.
People may perceive you as a racist and that is just something that you are going to have to deal with. There were Marines that I served with that had rebel flag tattoos and the Marine Corp had no problem with them. Some people are going to be offended no matter what you do.
For a teacher to go around saying that he hates someone for their beliefs shouldn't be a teacher. I just wanted to put that out there for you sir.
I am glad to see all the different points of view on this topic it shows that we are all in fact individuals. We are allowed to believe what ever we want know matter how wrong it may be. That is punk rock to take something and make it yours just to push the envelope. I say question everything and then form your opinions on the matter. If someone questions your values or beliefs so be it they to have the right.
If I was scouting members for a new band and I saw that flag on stage I wouldn't even think about asking you to join. No matter how good you were. It would immediately say that you agree with any and all implications that it represents. It's an offensive symbol to a lot of people, and to not see that is a little ignorant.
That being said, if you want to be memorable you should give everything you have everytime you go onstage. That will make people remember you. What's better? Being known as a killer band, or being known as that band with the flags?
You brought up Dropkick Murphys in reference to the usage of flags. Most of the flags employed Irish themes. DKM are seen as a representation of Boston because they are a Boston band with strong Irish roots. Massachusetts has one of the largest Irish populations. That's why a lot of people rally around them.
That being said, if you want to be memorable you should give everything you have everytime you go onstage. That will make people remember you. What's better? Being known as a killer band, or being known as that band with the flags?
You brought up Dropkick Murphys in reference to the usage of flags. Most of the flags employed Irish themes. DKM are seen as a representation of Boston because they are a Boston band with strong Irish roots. Massachusetts has one of the largest Irish populations. That's why a lot of people rally around them.
billoetjen, I cannot believe people like you are allowed to mold young minds. Just because you are a teacher does not mean your views are any more meaningful than anyone else who puts in their point of view of the flag and its meaning. (I am currently applying for my phd in History, just FYI)
I am not debating the racist ties of the flag at all what-so-ever, there is a strong correlation between the two. However, before Hitler and the formation of the Nazi party, the swastika was a symbol of peace and prosperity among many cultures, including early settlers in Europe and the major Indian religions. Now there is a strong movement to reclaim the cultural and religious ties to this symbol, but it is forever tarnished. Now an educated person would understand the deeper meaning behind it, but a vast majority of people will forever associate it with some of the most horrific events ever to take place in human history, and they have every right to.
Now going back to the Confederate Flag, Southern Secession and the role slavery played in it is not as significant as one might believe. It certainly played a role, but to me state rights and northern control over congress are the first two issues that come to mind. But if we're talking about the bigotry associated with the flag and the war that raised it, we must also discuss General Sherman's war crimes, and the American Flag he did it under. If we truly want to get into and dissect all the events done under the American flag, such as a genocide of Native Americans and all the defaulted treaties with them (Cherokee Nation comes to mind), or the Internment camps that thousands of Asian Americans were forced into, it really raises some questions.
I will say this, I am bringing up all these opinions with an open mind, if you disagree with me I am more than happy to listen and understand your point of view (too bad billoetjen does not do so). I am a proud American, I am a proud Southerner, and I do in-fact have a Confederate Flag hanging in my room with the insignia "My Heritage, Your Ignorance", and that's how I feel. However, YOU DO NOT NEED TO FEEL THE SAME WAY AS ME AND YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINION, IT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO ATTACK MINE (I used billoetjen as an example because he simply believes his views are the only views).
Back to the OP, Don't do anything you are not comfortable with, I read you were considering just flying the Florida Flag, which is a great idea, there is a lot of great southern history behind it which your band mates should have no issue with. If they raise an issue and do not respect your viewpoints and opinions, I would strongly consider leaving the band at that point.
Feel Free to PM me if you have any issues with what I say, as long as its done in a civil and respectful manner.
I am not debating the racist ties of the flag at all what-so-ever, there is a strong correlation between the two. However, before Hitler and the formation of the Nazi party, the swastika was a symbol of peace and prosperity among many cultures, including early settlers in Europe and the major Indian religions. Now there is a strong movement to reclaim the cultural and religious ties to this symbol, but it is forever tarnished. Now an educated person would understand the deeper meaning behind it, but a vast majority of people will forever associate it with some of the most horrific events ever to take place in human history, and they have every right to.
Now going back to the Confederate Flag, Southern Secession and the role slavery played in it is not as significant as one might believe. It certainly played a role, but to me state rights and northern control over congress are the first two issues that come to mind. But if we're talking about the bigotry associated with the flag and the war that raised it, we must also discuss General Sherman's war crimes, and the American Flag he did it under. If we truly want to get into and dissect all the events done under the American flag, such as a genocide of Native Americans and all the defaulted treaties with them (Cherokee Nation comes to mind), or the Internment camps that thousands of Asian Americans were forced into, it really raises some questions.
I will say this, I am bringing up all these opinions with an open mind, if you disagree with me I am more than happy to listen and understand your point of view (too bad billoetjen does not do so). I am a proud American, I am a proud Southerner, and I do in-fact have a Confederate Flag hanging in my room with the insignia "My Heritage, Your Ignorance", and that's how I feel. However, YOU DO NOT NEED TO FEEL THE SAME WAY AS ME AND YOU ARE ENTITLED TO YOUR OWN OPINION, IT DOES NOT GIVE YOU THE RIGHT TO ATTACK MINE (I used billoetjen as an example because he simply believes his views are the only views).
Back to the OP, Don't do anything you are not comfortable with, I read you were considering just flying the Florida Flag, which is a great idea, there is a lot of great southern history behind it which your band mates should have no issue with. If they raise an issue and do not respect your viewpoints and opinions, I would strongly consider leaving the band at that point.
Feel Free to PM me if you have any issues with what I say, as long as its done in a civil and respectful manner.
So if someone flies a flag, they must agree with any implication that anyone could have about that flag? OK...
Hmm, looks like the Dropkick Murphys support terrorism
PS: I don't actually believe that the Dropkick Murphys support terrorism, I just wanted to demonstrate that if someone has to agree with all the implications that go along with a symbol, then there's an awful lot of symbols that are going to be "off-limits".
+1000000000000000 and coming from a family of teachers, you billoetjen are as big a douche as the OP is for thinking he is a Punker but caring what other people think.
It's where the best and brightest come to maturely discuss honest issues.
Or where a bunch of monkeys gather to fling poo and one another.
Don't worry, I totally understand what you're getting at. I think that by using a symbol to represent yourself ,or your band, you should be prepared to deal with how other peole view that symbol.
A good example would be a friend of mine. He has a fist tattooed on him in homage to RATM. It also looks like a white power tattoo. He got into a scuffle because of said tattoo. He also has a shamrock tattoo which can also carry a similar message.
The moral of the story here is that you should be prepared for any stigma that comes with using certain symbols. Everything has something negative attached to it. It's just a matter of if the positive side out ways the negative. It's all preception.
I take great offense to this statement.
If anything I want to be compared to this guy, not a poo flinging monkey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yZFbzaWbg
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