Confessions of a Flatwound convert...

[Sundogue]

Sundogue,your interpretation of my post is all wrong. I never said your guitar players are unprofessional, I have never heard your band. I simply told you I play with a group of musicians who know how not to step on each other. If flats work better for you in your situation, good for you. I am not a "die hard rounds user" myself and certainly I don't hate flatwounds,I have a gig at a little tavern this afternoon on the beach and I will be using a Fender Precision with flatwounds. I sometimes even use my upright for this gig,but don't feel like hauling it today. All I was doing was expresing my opinion and that is all. Steve

Then all is cool. Have fun on your gig. I'm thrilled it will be 40 degrees today and the snow will be melting.

 

[JustDavid]

Steve, from what I recall from your posts in this thread, you've tried Flats in a loud hard Rock scenario, tried them for awhile, with a fair amount of effort to get them 'dial'ed into the mix'.

And they didn't work for you.

I think a fair trial of Flats in the Loud Rock situation is all anyone could ask for, & I think you gave them that.

 

[Sundogue]

Alright, I have been seduced by your original post, Sundogue, as well as the Lakland sound clips link, and all the insightful comments to be found in this thread.

I plunked around for literally about thrirty seconds on flatwounds when I was just learning, and immediately ran screaming in terror from the dull tone. I've played only bright-toned roundwounds (generally Elixir) for 25 years since then, never seeing any reason to try flats on my basses before now.

I've played in local bands -- mostly loud, mostly rock, but also fusion, blues, and country. Sometimes with PA support, sometimes without. I have been generally satisfied with my sound, but Sundogue's original post rings true.

Kept reading, and settled on Chromes as the ones to try.

I called the local mom-and-pop music store -- sorry, no flats at all.

So I found an ebay deal from an out-of-state music store. Less than fifty dollars for two sets of Chromes, .50 - .105. They are on the way! I can't wait to try them.

Don't be surprised if you initially still have the same reaction you had years ago. You really need to consider the sound of the whole band with regards to your sound. Flats still seem dull to me at times, but then when I'm rockin' out on a gig, they just feel and sound so right. Best of luck with it!

 

[JustDavid]

JustDavid,that is all I was trying to do is let everybody know what works for somebody may not work for the other guy. I was just sharing my experience and the fact that flatwounds do not work for me in an environment I often play in. How my words became so misconstrued is beyond my understanding. I will say this though,I do an awful lot of auditions and even if a player or the band is not what I would consider at my level, never would I call anybody a name. Also,as a Bass player I can be either a shredder or a solid foundation player,it all depends on the situation. All The Best,Steve

Things happen in threads this size. While replying to me you might still have someone else's reply in mind, et cetera et cetera.

IIRC, your original point was that Flats had benefits but that they weren't best for you in a situation similar to OP's situation. Me; I'm finding they are. But there are so MANY other factors; room, PA, cab, head, EQing, FX, bass, fingers/pick, guitarist's tone preferences.

IIRC, OP's main point was that Flats are a very viable option for Classic Rock, & perhaps a solution for 'lost in the mix' issues. I think you can agree with that, & guess that you might agree that it'd be worth $50 as a potential troubleshooting step.

 

[Count Bassie]

Well I plugged in with the Chromes. Here's the scenario:

Smith Burner CR4, passive, stock p'ups>
Sansamp Bass Driver DI>
BGW 250C power amp (300-watt old limping dog)>
SWR Henry the 8x8 pre-Fender cab (Celestion B-60s)>
My ragged ears...

So I'm not known for being very scientific, and my amp (Yorkville 400B) that I just got in a trade is at the shop getting a going-over for some minor issues, hence the BGW jig. But...

I am liking the sound. The tone is, yes, a short-sustaining 'bump', with attitude. There is a top-end to the sound which comes through nicely with a little 'Presence" dialed in on the Sansamp. I get a sweet finger-hit at the attack, and a solid 'bump' afterward. The strings are new, so the G-string is a good bit bright and slightly aggressive, which I think will tone down after a couple weeks of playing, a couple gigs, and some good chicken-grease rubbed in there between the ribbon windings. But the combination makes me feel pretty good about my sound right now. Tight, round-ish, and quite clear. Nice.

My issue- and reason for taking part in this thread- has been the nemesis of the Smith Burner sound, due I think mostly to the non-functioning preamp on-board this bass. I thought that a string change might be an inexpensive and reasonable way to change the sound I've been getting. It does appear to be working- that 'honk' and sharp midrange I've found annoying and undesirable has subsided in lieu of a pleasant and fat little punch. I'm sure the 8x8 cab is contributing, but it's all working well together- solo'd anyway!

I got the Regular Light gauge Chromes, .45-100. I'll post again after some ensemble playing and we'll see how this works out over time. I do a cover thing for some bread, and a straight-ahead (read: Raw and undisciplined) rock band one night a week (the 'Grammy Band').

Funny, my first 'real' bass was a beaten and abused Gibson EB-0, which came with flats. Needless to say, if you know about the old mud-buckers, my impression of the sound was very muddy! I went to using D'Addario Half-Rounds with that bass, after installing a DiMarzio Model-1 p'up into it. That combination lent a dark but growly, not-quite-boxy tone that recorded live well. Later I discovered the Rotosound Swing set, and would use nothing else for any bass. I'm a creature of habit.

I've been back to flats again since I started playing reggae 4 or 5 years ago. I soon started playing other gigs with the flats- because I'm cheap!- and found results similar to those of Sundogue here.

I'm using LaBella Nylon-Wounds (nylon-wound flats, very 'thunky' and pretty 'dark') on a Peavey Dyna-Bass Unity (active 3-band eq with a generally 'silky' character to the sound- the results are working for everything I do, who'd a thought?), and still experimenting with two other old dawgs. So, so far, the Chromes are getting a thumbs-up!

 

[pc]

As a long time roundwound user, it really requires me to lose my ego for me to accept how I sound now. I've spent my entire career as a bass player trying to improve "MY" tone. Now I don't care and for some odd reason I hear myself better than I ever have. Strange...very strange.

Good luck with your experiment.

I know! I'm feeling exactly like this. On my previous gig I always used the mid-boost trick to be heard, even hating that tone soloed. Now, there is no place to go. My lows are muddy and my mids, which I could cut reasonably well through little overdriven guitars, disapeared.

When I read your post, I remembered how good I sounded with flats. I always felt the Precision pickup was responsible for that, but now I'm pretty sure it was the TI's. The P pickup was also responsible, but now I see the most of that tone came from the strings.

 

[p-bass]

Keep on using those flats if they work for ya all ! I live in the gigging world and will keep on using my rounds for most gigs ! Flats may rule on Talkbass,but in the real world....I don't think so. Later ,Steve

 

[Count Bassie]

Keep on using those flats if they work for ya all ! I live in the gigging world and will keep on using my rounds for most gigs ! Flats may rule on Talkbass,but in the real world....I don't think so. Later ,Steve

I will say that the whole success of this or that string, p'up, etc. has more to do with the personality of your playing than anything else, whatever the venue. Is it a fit or not? Talking about the real world like it's a place "we flat-users" smug don't live in is just silly. Come on, man.

I've been playing 30 real years, gigging for most of them, and been using mostly flats for the last 5.

 

[Sundogue]

I will say that the whole success of this or that string, p'up, etc. has more to do with the personality of your playing than anything else, whatever the venue. Is it a fit or not? Talking about the real world like it's a place "we flat-users" smug don't live in is just silly. Come on, man.

I've been playing 30 real years, gigging for most of them, and been using mostly flats for the last 5.

Give him a break...he's from LA. He probably thinks he actually lives in the real world. Let him be.

 

[smeet]

Geez, calm down guys.

I'm in LA also, so let's not get elitist about locale.

But p-bass, your last post was pretty darn snotty sounding. I live in the real world too. I gig. I play jazz, classic rock, singer-songwriter stuff, funk, and Zappa-like eclecticism. The Chromes work better for me in all those situations so far. If they don't for you, then state that, but to suggest that your experience is more real than everybody else's is ludicrous. I don't live on Talkbass.

With Chromes on my Sadowsky, I can get everything from a middy jaco growl to a clicky hard-rock sound to a motown thump, even a pretty good Chris Squire piano tone with a pick. Just like I could with the LowRiders, but now with more fundamental and evenness. I can hear myself better now than I could. My fellow musicians liked my roundwound sound, and they like the flatwound sound even more.

 

[idoker]

With Chromes on my Sadowsky, I can get everything from a middy jaco growl to a clicky hard-rock sound to a motown thump, even a pretty good Chris Squire piano tone with a pick. Just like I could with the LowRiders, but now with more fundamental and evenness.

How does the string tension of the Lo-Riders you use to use compare to the Chromes you use now? Also, what is the scale length of your Sadowsky, as this also effects tension. Thanks.

 

[JimmyM]

So I brought a roundwound bass and a flatwound bass to my gig Saturday and AB'd them for everyone and asked for opinions. Turns out the other guys in the band haven't been quite as happy with my flats as I thought.

Our guitarist and sax player vehemently prefer rounds and hate the flats. Our keyboard player likes them both but prefers the rounds because he loves bands like Yes and Kansas and they remind him of them. Our drummer said, "What the hell are you talking about?" but then said he liked the rounds better after I pointed out the difference.

Funny thing is that in that band, I'm playing 50's-60's-70's music, most of which was cut on flats. But they're not really big on the old school tones like I am. The guitarist thinks the flats have too much bottom and not enough snap. They do like the flats on some songs, but I only like to bring and play one electric bass during a show, so bringing two basses is out of the question unless I need the second bass for a reason other than showing off.

So since they've weighed in with pretty strong opinions, and I'm a firm believer in doing things that everyone else that you work with likes and I have no pretentions about being an "artiste" in an oldies band, I'm putting the rounds back on. That's the way it goes.

 

[mav]

So I brought a roundwound bass and a flatwound bass to my gig Saturday and AB'd them for everyone and asked for opinions. Turns out the other guys in the band haven't been quite as happy with my flats as I thought.

Our guitarist and sax player vehemently prefer rounds and hate the flats. Our keyboard player likes them both but prefers the rounds because he loves bands like Yes and Kansas and they remind him of them. Our drummer said, "What the hell are you talking about?" but then said he liked the rounds better after I pointed out the difference.

Funny thing is that in that band, I'm playing 50's-60's-70's music, most of which was cut on flats. But they're not really big on the old school tones like I am. The guitarist thinks the flats have too much bottom and not enough snap. They do like the flats on some songs, but I only like to bring and play one electric bass during a show, so bringing two basses is out of the question unless I need the second bass for a reason other than showing off.

So since they've weighed in with pretty strong opinions, and I'm a firm believer in doing things that everyone else that you work with likes and I have no pretentions about being an "artiste" in an oldies band, I'm putting the rounds back on. That's the way it goes.

I feel sorry for your band mates JimmyM they must be sick to death of you changing up your basses, strings ,amps, pedals etc... every gig.




I don't give a S$%&^T about what strings my guitarist plays just as long as he play well

 

[JimmyM]

I feel sorry for your band mates JimmyM they must be sick to death of you changing up your basses, strings ,amps, pedals etc... every gig.



I don't give a S$%&^T about what strings my guitarist plays just as long as he play well

LOL! Yeah, they're a little sick of it, but my tone doesn't change all that much. It's all varying degrees of the same thing. Except for flats and my SVT. They've expressed very strong opinions about that...keep the SVT, lose the flats.

I imagine my sound isn't the most important thing in their lives and vice versa, but we all contribute opinions to each other on sounds and gear and whatnot, and if they have a strong opinion one way or another, I usually go along with it, though I did force them to deal with the Markbass combo I had until I decided I hated downsizing.

 

[mav]

You can't go wrong with an SVT my friend!

 

[Count Bassie]

I've been forcing my bandmates in the cover band to 'deal with it' as well, but they don't seem to care. The only one it actually bothers at all is me... an SVT head would end the amp-swapping fits I've been having though!

Anyway I played the Chromes a second time in the basement last night, and they are pretty danged bright for flats. It's an interesting combination of bright/thumpy, and I can dial-in toward whichever end of the range I like better. They sound solid and vibrant- and like I can get some music out of 'em. Don't know how to better describe it, but the limitations they present are very acceptable so far.

 

[Sundogue]

So I brought a roundwound bass and a flatwound bass to my gig Saturday and AB'd them for everyone and asked for opinions. Turns out the other guys in the band haven't been quite as happy with my flats as I thought.

Our guitarist and sax player vehemently prefer rounds and hate the flats. Our keyboard player likes them both but prefers the rounds because he loves bands like Yes and Kansas and they remind him of them. Our drummer said, "What the hell are you talking about?" but then said he liked the rounds better after I pointed out the difference.

Funny thing is that in that band, I'm playing 50's-60's-70's music, most of which was cut on flats. But they're not really big on the old school tones like I am. The guitarist thinks the flats have too much bottom and not enough snap. They do like the flats on some songs, but I only like to bring and play one electric bass during a show, so bringing two basses is out of the question unless I need the second bass for a reason other than showing off.

So since they've weighed in with pretty strong opinions, and I'm a firm believer in doing things that everyone else that you work with likes and I have no pretentions about being an "artiste" in an oldies band, I'm putting the rounds back on. That's the way it goes.

You know, over the last few of weeks of reading your posts (here and regarding the VT pedal and tube amps, etc.) I've really come to respect and appreciate the practicality of your opinions.

My decision to switch to flats was based on what was best for the band too. Interesting in that the two guitarists in my band preferred the roundwounds more as well. Until I explained to them that me playing flats opened up their 'tonal' space more for them so that instead of battling to be heard distinctly, they now had the freedom to ride on top of the rhythm section's wave of low end. They (all of us actually) also loved that because my tone was distinctly different than theirs, there would be less need to use volume as a separator. They understand where I'm coming from and have come to love the flats more now.

I completely understand a bass player's decision to either stick with rounds or switch back to them. I still love the sound of rounds more than flats and honestly prefer rounds. It's just that for the style of music we play, the band sounds better with me playing flats. For all the love of that bright, piano-like clarity rounds offer, we really don't do very many songs where that sound shines enough to make it worthwhile for me.

Good for you that you are a 'team' player and take it all under consideration, instead of just being consumed only with your tone only. If everyone hated me playing with flats, I'd stick with rounds myself. But after months of trying to define the band's sound more (though we've been gigging together for 13 years) and specifically searching for whatever gives the rhythm section a more powerful sound, we've all discovered that flats tighten us up more 'tonally' and also give the drums and bass more separation from the rest of the band so everyone else has this solid foundation to ride on.

I think it's cool whenever bass players try to do what's best for the band instead of being consumed with their own 'tone' like they were a solo act. We all have to find our groove, but if we're not thinking about it's affect on the overall sound of the band, we might as well be playing alone in "Madison Square Living Room". Whether it's rounds or flats...it's all about the band.

Now about that Ampeg your using, and that VT pedal...

 

[Sundogue]

I've been forcing my bandmates in the cover band to 'deal with it' as well, but they don't seem to care. The only one it actually bothers at all is me... an SVT head would end the amp-swapping fits I've been having though!

Anyway I played the Chromes a second time in the basement last night, and they are pretty danged bright for flats. It's an interesting combination of bright/thumpy, and I can dial-in toward whichever end of the range I like better. They sound solid and vibrant- and like I can get some music out of 'em. Don't know how to better describe it, but the limitations they present are very acceptable so far.

My Chromes are quite settled in now. While they still have that bright mid-range sound, they have become more 'full' and even sounding. When brand new that brightness almost seemed like it was so much in the forefront of the Chromes sound, that it masked that solid 'bass' sound lying underneath.

Once the shimmering 'newness' wore off the low end is deeper now, or at least (while always being there) is showing itself more now. I've only played them once with the band thus far at rehearsal, but they fit in nicely in the rhythm section, while allowing more notes to be cleanly heard.

This coming weekend I have a couple of shows that will be a great test for them in live gig setting. The TI's already passed the gig test...and I'm a little concerned about the Chromes mid-range brightness yet...as they still have a little too much 'roundwound" growl to them (which I would think makes them an ideal string for someone who is just switching from rounds to flats).

Yeah, an SVT. I'm still GASing for an all tube head. The VT pedal has me intrigued though since I am nowhere near close enough to having enough cash for a tube amp yet. I'm getting a fairly close tube type sound (as one could get with all SS and no tube preamp), but the VT pedal sounds like an interesting way to bridge the gap until I can go ALL TUBE.

 

[Count Bassie]

I've just got hold of a Sansamp BDDI, and that puts a tube-ish spin on the sound of a ss head. I have this 400B Yorkville which tends to sound kind of 'boxy' and mid-rangey. I don't know the freq that this 'hump' is at, it seems to just exist no matter what I do, but in the band it works. I find the Sansamp in front of it is a nice flavor though, and lends it a little more tube-type sag, as we might call it.

I'll have to try it at a gig now, and make sure I haven't wrecked anything!

Anyway I've been a flats convert a while now, and fwiw I've found that everywhere I play it's working out very well. It's become a trademark, what's developed in my voice because of it, and I'm liking having that enhanced signature- especially since it works for me in my little neighborhood here. In my little world, I mean. (JK P-bass!)...

P.S. I really like what's it's done for the Smith! Still has the Smith character, but sounds more like a Rickie now! I'm digging that.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

I had a similar experience to JimmyM in my previous band. The singer disliked the "out front" punchiness of my SB2 with Deep Talkin Flats and much preferred the sound of my Stingray with Low Beams. Fortunately, my new band gives me latitude with my tone and I have gotten compliments on the Borngo/Chromes sound.