Confessions of a Flatwound convert...

[experimental bassist]

Amen. I used flats back in the late 60s/70s, then couldn't resist the sound of Stanley Clarke and have played rounds ever since. Now I'm in a new oldies band with lots of midrange sound and I've come to the same conclusion you're writing about so well "Low and Simple" is where the power is. It's a blast!

I'm going to go buy some flatwounds tonight. (Anybody still selling "groundwounds"? Maybe I'll inch up on it.)

D'addario makes groundwounds (they call them Half Rounds). I'm sure there are others.

http://store.daddario.com/category/145875/ENR71_Long_Scale_45-100

 

[terlewine]

Thanks. I just picked up some Fender stainless flats. Maybe this'll be just like old times...

 

[Sundogue]

This thread has given me a lot of food for thought, too, and has sharpened in my mind the real reason I prefer flats for many types of music, both to play and to listen to (for example, my tastes in more 'organic music' run to Brasilian and African , reggae, acoustic jazz, where on the other hand I look for something else as well in rock- the excitement of the high volume, the pure sensation of it coming from it's own new sounds and musical language)

First off, I'm not sure I agree with the premise that rounds sound like a low tuned guitar, and that flats give a more solid bottom, etc. That can be true, but it depends more on EQ, amplification, and how you use them than any great fundamental difference in the strings.

Live, at least, I can get a great big supporting groove going with either, for example, and though different strings can make me play differently, in the end it's up to my choices how I'm going to sound; the string doesn't dictate it. I do prefer in general letting an instrument speak and i use fairly flat EQ, but both types can be used to cover many styles and tones, and do overlap a lot.

Anyway, to my main point.

I have a theory that we respond to the human voice very strongly, and that most melodic and many percussion instruments through different cultures and musical styles imitate the human voice to a greater or lesser degree. It is natural they do so, for many reasons obvious to me, that I won't elaborate here.

The bassists I most admire usually have a very vocal style of note shaping and tones that can sound very human, and voice like. I find it much easier to imitate these sounds with the natural attack and decay of flats, and L + RH, or foam muting can accentuate this even more, not necessarily the same effect as when using rounds. 'Modern' bass tones with their wide frequencies, infinite sustain, etc, owe as much to the advent of the synth, and our ears becoming accustomed to and accepting of less 'natural sounds' than ever before. I'm in no way making a value judgment about whether this is good or bad, it just reflects the way we live and experience things now.

But even the hugely artificial guitar and bass sounds we use now, in the hands of the great artists, tend to end up sounding like variations of human expression, from the wail of a distorted electric guitar, to the way gated and wah-ed synths sound.

The same can be said for many of the arts- where modern art is self referencing and uses modern symbols or shapes and colours to describe the human condition, before it used naturalistic portrayals of nature and humans to make it's point, or made a point simply of that. Same for poetry, and literature, to a degree- what meaning does a poem or story have to us now that uses animals, plants, and seasons to illustrate its meanings, for example, when we have little or no real life knowledge of the same?

So while not denigrating the exciting and fully modern capabilities of a roundwound wearing bass, my preference for the sounds one can get from flats is due to it being in many ways a more 'natural' form of expression, a combination of a drum and a human voice, in a matter of speaking. They can sound more like gut than metal, too, part of the whole musical vibe that stretches back to our ancestors. That is the big difference to my ears and for my purposes.

I hope this hasn't been too obtuse or hard to follow- I have given few examples and have made too many very broad generalizations, but it is a very important part of one of the ways I play bass, and it guides my instrument, string, and amplification choices for some of the music I play, too.

I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this. Very enlightened and I agree wholeheartedly.

One thing you brought up that has merit (especially in this age of technological advances)...

"...what meaning does a poem or story have to us now that uses animals, plants, and seasons to illustrate its meanings, for example, when we have little or no real life knowledge of the same?"

I see this as very interesting to me as an artist that creates paintings depicting nature and I also do murals and dioramas in private and public natural history museums. I'm also a naturalist and I can see where many have no real life knowledge of said subjects. However, the further we go away from who and what we are, the more precious and necessary nature becomes. The meaning is our very existence, even if few acknowledge it.

And I would agree that a part of me enjoys playing bass using flatwounds because they are more organic sounding, more percussive (in a tribal rhythm kind of way...to me) and thus more in line with my feelings about nature.

Very good post. Thanks.

 

[experimental bassist]

Well, just switched to flats on my Acoustic Bass Guitar.

Had bronze Elixirs on it, typical ABG sound. Needed to upgrade the saddle, so figured it was a good time for a string upgrade as well.

My guitar shop had D'addario Chromes in stock, and based on all the glowing reports I figured I'd give 'em a try on my ABG.

For reference, my Precision has Thomastik Infeld Jazz flats, which I absolutely love.

Granted, comparing tone and string differences between a P bass and an ABG is apples to oranges, but here's my 2 cents anyway:


1. Tension - the Chromes have it. Feels like old times, much better for faster playing. Also I imagine better for slapping and popping if that's your thing. Of course, it's still a matter of preference, as my "simple caveman" laid back blues and roots style is the perfect fit for the lower tension TI's.

2. The tone. Wow, I was surprised how bright the Chromes are. Is that a hint of piano timbre when I plucked the open strings? Granted I'm sure they will mellow out, but by comparison my TI's were never this bright, even way back when they were brand new.

However, the TI's on my P have a really nice low-mid "woody" timbre that I don't hear with the Chromes. I don't know if that's due to the TI's lower tension or something else. I'll withold final judgment until the Chromes break in and mellow, but for today I have to give my preference to the TI tone due to their added tonal "complexity" for lack of a better word.

3. Volume. Wow, I guess I had low expectations switching from the bronze Elixirs to Chromes, but the shear volume of my ABG now is borderline startling (granted I also installed a higher quality saddle, but c'mon, it's just a saddle).

The original twangy bronze sound is now replaced by a deep, thick, growling tone that just brings a smile on my face. So far this has been the biggest and best surprise of all. Of course the amplified tone is just as sweet, but I was already expecting good things from the amplified Chrome sound. Again what I wasn't expecting to be so pleasantly surprised by the unamplified volume and sound.



Anyway, enough rambling for now. I'll share my thoughts after the Chromes break in and I have a chance to use my ABG in a band setting.

For the record, 2 of my 3 basses now wear flats, and it's probably just a matter of time for my shortscale to get some.

Peace

[Edit: I mentioned this in another thread and was asked for soundclips, so I posted a clip on my myspace page, link in my sig for the curious]


PS Yes, I know the rule, no pics no Chrome'd ABG. So here ya go:

 

[bassman_al]

Before posting, I wanted to wait a little while after I strung my first sets of flats. Now that it has been a few weeks and I have had a couple gigs and practices, I am ready to say that I really am enjoying flats on both the P and the J. Fender 9050L's. I like the lighter gauge, I like that these strings sound so good, and that I can still slap and pop if I want, albeit with a different sound than with my former EB hybrids.

I just made a recording with them, in a live jazz setting. the Triple Double Jazz Myspace link in my sig has these recordings, if you are curious. Fender USA Jazz '62 RI into a SVT III Pro through Epifani PS112. Recorder was a digital recorder, kind of like the Zoom H2 but a different brand, that our guitarist brought out.

 

[OzDoug64]

This post is really getting to me.....

Since reading most of the replies over the last few weeks I've been a bit anxious to what strings I really should be using live.

I have 2 x Lakland 5's, one strung with slinky rounds, the other with D'Addario chrome flats. Both sound great but if I had to choose one I'm undecided.

Rounds give me the bright funk tone I like personally where flats blend in with the drums better and the guitarist prefers the tone. Both sound good out front so who do you please?

 

[Sundogue]

This post is really getting to me.....

Since reading most of the replies over the last few weeks I've been a bit anxious to what strings I really should be using live.

I have 2 x Lakland 5's, one strung with slinky rounds, the other with D'Addario chrome flats. Both sound great but if I had to choose one I'm undecided.

Rounds give me the bright funk tone I like personally where flats blend in with the drums better and the guitarist prefers the tone. Both sound good out front so who do you please?

Then you already have the best of both worlds! If I used two basses live I would have one strung with flats and one with rounds. But since most of the music I play these days is hard classic rock, flats work best for me.

Seriously, you've got the ideal situation. As far as pleasing anyone, please yourself first because that's what matters most and it's why you play music. But there is no reason why pleasing yourself can't please others too. Besides there is no pleasing everyone anyway.

 

[ProfGumby]

D'addario makes groundwounds (they call them Half Rounds). I'm sure there are others.

http://store.daddario.com/category/145875/ENR71_Long_Scale_45-100

The Half rounds from D'Addario took some getting used to for me, and they sure do have a bit of zip to them. I have the same gauge (45-100) on one bass that I usually just noodle around with. I murder a lot of Rush songs on that bass.

The Chromes on the other hand are a great half way between flats and rounds. A nice clang to them, with more low end than rounds and none of the downsides. The chromes in the light gauge (45-100) are probably my favorite strings, and my "sound".

I do have a jazz with DR's and a P bass with Detroit flats both (45-105) because, well, I learned a long time ago, if you want to make the ladies dance, you gotta swing the low end....and some stuff just calls for that monster thump!

 

[fenwickbacker]

I'm now a month into gigging (after a break), and my Geddy w/ rounds has been collecting dust.

Right now I'm locked into my 57AV P w/ LaBella flats. It's just working. As discussed in many other posts, the P/flats combo works in holding down the low end. We're a 9-pc w/ a 4-pc horn section. Yep - lots of people in those mid/high voices.

I may give flats a try on the Geddy, but would hate to lose that bridge p-up brightness . . . although the brightness, or lack thereof, is why I'm locked-in w/ the P and flats.

Sundogue - to your initial post, this P/flats combo almost forces me to simplify the basslines, or least try not to overcomplicate them or add additional notes. Like George Porter said - sometimes it's the notes you don't play that make it funky. (OK, maybe I'm paraphrasing or I made that last part up . . . if he didn't say it, he sure plays that way).

Loving life on the low end.

 

[david fitch]

George Porter uses D'Addario XL Nickelwound Roundwounds these days. Most of the great players that used to use flatwounds have made the switch to roundwounds. I always keep at least one bass strung up with flatwounds, although I do like rounds better .

 

[dogbluedrummer]

I am about a month into using Chromes on my Squire VMJ.
Totally happy. No finger noise, much fuller presence, and plenty of thump.
The best part is my tone just sets better with the drums and rythem guitar. I used to cut through the sound mix, now I carry it!
Consider me officially a flatwound convert.

 

[Sundogue]

The best part is my tone just sets better with the drums and rythem guitar. I used to cut through the sound mix, now I carry it! Consider me officially a flatwound convert.

Sundogue - to your initial post, this P/flats combo almost forces me to simplify the basslines, or least try not to overcomplicate them or add additional notes. Like George Porter said - sometimes it's the notes you don't play that make it funky.

I really think that this is what flats give you over roundwounds...instead of "cutting through the mix", they sit with the rhythm section better and drive the underlying sound more than they do mixing in with the whole.

And yes, I agree that because flats have a certain strength or characteristic that rounds do not, it almost forces one to reconsider their approach to playing bass, in that one will feel this stronger sense of rhythmic purpose and actually enjoy the power of simpler lines that drive the music. Of course that is not going to be for everyone and it's understandable.

I've found that I no longer desire playing complex or more melodic bass lines. Every note seems to carry more weight, and make more of a statement. Rather than trying to feed the song more than it really needs for my own self-satisfaction, I find myself allowing the music to breathe more where I just give it a pulse and let the other musicians fill in the rest. It is equally gratifying to simply give the music a strong, yet simple direction.

I liken my playing to the drummer being the engine and I'm the transmission. The rest of the band does all the "accessorizing", like "options available" on a car...they can play whatever they care to and add as much or as little as they want to the music, knowing that the car is going where it needs to go, as fast or as slow as it needs to, regardless.

 

[N.F.A.]

Nice post and nice thread sundogue. I am totally with you. I also use TI flats on my Ric and Beatle bass. Use rounds on the Stingray though. They both have their uses, but I prefer flats most of the time... They just work better live for me.. That low end is totally thumptastic!

 

[Bassman316]

I'd like to pose a question about flatwounds and ABGs, since my bronze rounds aren't really doing it for me anymore. Has anyone experienced any issues with stringing up flats on an ABG and the tension they pull? I've been thinking about trying some light gauge flats on my ABG but I'm worried about tension.

 

[Sundogue]

Nice post and nice thread sundogue. I am totally with you. I also use TI flats on my Ric and Beatle bass. Use rounds on the Stingray though. They both have their uses, but I prefer flats most of the time... They just work better live for me.. That low end is totally thumptastic!

I'm still working on getting a 6 string bass and I want to put rounds on that. But that's for a completely different music project.

 

[experimental bassist]

I'd like to pose a question about flatwounds and ABGs, since my bronze rounds aren't really doing it for me anymore. Has anyone experienced any issues with stringing up flats on an ABG and the tension they pull? I've been thinking about trying some light gauge flats on my ABG but I'm worried about tension.

I recently put D'addario Chromes on my ABG (just above, post 884).

Yes, they have more tension then the Elixir Phos-Bronze strings I had on it. It is my belief that the greater tension has produced a noticable increase in unplugged volume, which suprised me.

I'm very aware that increasing tension on an acoustic instrument can lead to all sorts of woes: Lifting bridges, cracked tops, neck-body seperation and broken necks just to name a few. I took it slow the first time I tuned up, and have checked on it every day and it's just peachy so far.

I'm not sure what kind of strings you currently use, but I would guess TI flats could be a good option as they are lower tension than many other strings. The TI website actually lists tension for their strings, so perhaps it's possible to find out how they compare to your current setup. On a standard 4 string, 34 inch scale the TI D string has the most tension at 37.47 pounds, and the A string has the least at 31.30 pounds.

[Edit: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]]

I came *real* close to using TI's on my ABG instead of Chromes since I love the TI's I have on my P bass. But I had never tried Chromes before so I was curious. Also my excellent local music store (Link Removed) had the D'addarios in stock so it made the decision easy.

All I can say is, so far so good and I hope it lasts, b/c my ABG finally sounds like what I think an ABG should sound like.

 

[Bassman316]

I recently put D'addario Chromes on my ABG (just above, post 884).

Yes, they have more tension then the Elixir Phos-Bronze strings I had on it. It is my belief that the greater tension has produced a noticable increase in unplugged volume, which suprised me.

I'm very aware that increasing tension on an acoustic instrument can lead to all sorts of woes: Lifting bridges, cracked tops, neck-body seperation and broken necks just to name a few. I took it slow the first time I tuned up, and have checked on it every day and it's just peachy so far.

I'm not sure what kind of strings you currently use, but I would guess TI flats could be a good option as they are lower tension than many other strings. The TI website actually lists tension for their strings, so perhaps it's possible to find out how they compare to your current setup. On a standard 4 string, 34 inch scale the TI D string has the most tension at 37.47 pounds, and the A string has the least at 31.30 pounds.

[Edit: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]]

I came *real* close to using TI's on my ABG instead of Chromes since I love the TI's I have on my P bass. But I had never tried Chromes before so I was curious. Also my excellent local music store (Link Removed) had the D'addarios in stock so it made the decision easy.

All I can say is, so far so good and I hope it lasts, b/c my ABG finally sounds like what I think an ABG should sound like.

I did notice your post from eariler... the Chromes on your ABG look good. I should have said that although I have heard of folks putting flats on their ABGs, I'm still a bit shaky about the problems that could potentially arise like what you described. I forgot about TI flats and how they're lower tension than most flats, at least Chromes anyway. Just might give those a spin.
Right now I have D'Addario Phosphor Bronze strings on my ABG. I checked out the string tensions that JustStrings has posted for this set and the D string pulls 55.7 pounds of tension. Given that the TI flats' D string pulls 37.47 pounds, I just might have to give that a try. IME, phosphor bronze bass strings just don't last long enough. They die WAY too fast in my opinion.

BTW.... keep us posted on how your Chromes break in. The set I have on my SX P-bass seems to break in more and more each day, and man do they sound good!

 

[Todd GT5]

Hey, just did my first gig with the Chromes on Sunday. I got good comments on the tone and thump. I think we need to get some subwoofers to complete the deal though.
- Todd

 

[experimental bassist]

I did notice your post from eariler... the Chromes on your ABG look good. I should have said that although I have heard of folks putting flats on their ABGs, I'm still a bit shaky about the problems that could potentially arise like what you described. I forgot about TI flats and how they're lower tension than most flats, at least Chromes anyway. Just might give those a spin.
Right now I have D'Addario Phosphor Bronze strings on my ABG. I checked out the string tensions that JustStrings has posted for this set and the D string pulls 55.7 pounds of tension. Given that the TI flats' D string pulls 37.47 pounds, I just might have to give that a try. IME, phosphor bronze bass strings just don't last long enough. They die WAY too fast in my opinion.

If you decide to go w/ the TI's I'd love to hear how it works out.

BTW.... keep us posted on how your Chromes break in. The set I have on my SX P-bass seems to break in more and more each day, and man do they sound good!

Will do!

 

[Sundogue]

I'm bailing on the flats for a while guys.

I'm forming a band with some longtime musician friends and we are going to be doing a lot of Yes, Rush and some more progressive rock and so together with my new Carvin BX1200 amphead and some new roundwounds, I'm going off the deep end and playing some nice bright, overdriven punchy rock that only the rounds will work with.

Because I only have the one bass, I'll be using the rounds for my other band as well (though the Chromes are better for that gig).

Guess it's time to get another bass just for the Chromes and my other band.

NOTE: (especially for those who felt I was so Pro Flat that I thought no one should use rounds) I never said I didn't like rounds, I only said that flats and rounds were different and that flats excel in areas rounds don't and visa versa. Right now I need me some roundwounds, dig?

Carry on.