Connect Amp Using DI

[JazznFunk]

I would second @Redbrangus on possible DI loading a passive bass, as well as possibly hearing bleed from the PA. If your behind the PA, all the highs are going out to the room. Below about 200hz, sound starts transitioning to 4pi and starts becoming omnidirectional. This mixes with your rig accenting the low end...i.e....might sound muddy or woofy or the likes.

Yep. Overhyped subs and backwash from them rendering your rig less than useful. Common problem on festival stages, or with techs who refuse to shelve the subs. Even if you give a true un-affected signal to the house straight from your bass, you have very little control over what will happen to it on their end (scooped mids, overly compressed, exaggerated low end in general are common).

 

[trevcda]

That boominess could have also been coming from another source sympathetically vibrating with your bass such as a hot tom or kick drum ringing or even an open vocal mic that hasn't been high-passed, depending on the capabilities of your sound technicians. In a throw and go festival situation sometimes collateral results get over looked in an effort to get the next act going and it can be easy to focus only on the source apparently causing the issue.

Edited to add: If the sound guy has the main EQ all jacked up in an attempt to EQ the kick drum into something that hits harder, this would adversely affect the bass guitar as they are both affected by these changes, the same as over-hyped subs in any system.

 

[Wasnex]

Overhyped subs and backwash from them rendering your rig less than useful.

I agree that a lot of audio techs overhype the subs. However, I would offer caution: It's entirely conceivable that the low end could be overbearing on stage and yet sound perfectly balanced out in the audience.

 

[borgward]

I suspect capabilities of your sound technicians. Playing with acoustic group that day. Usually don't use Bass through sound board. I set my rig as usual, play a little, sound guy suggests more or less volume and crank other settings up or down. I'm happy. He is happy. I adjust settings on the fly within reason.

Don't think I am ever going to allow DI again. Shouldn't they have put a mic on the cab instead? Last time years ago had bad booming experience running through soundboard. People in audience were yelling at tech to fix it,

My usual Bass Amp is in the shop and it has preamp out, line out and something else. No XLR out though.

 

[Wasnex]

Don't think I am ever going to allow DI again. Shouldn't they have put a mic on the cab instead?

There are times when running bass through the PA is a huge improvement. However acoustics, the quality of the PA, and the skill and artistic vision of the audio tech are significant mitigating factors.

Your stage volume in relation to the level of the PA are also significant. In order to do a good job, the PA must dominant the room and be capable of focusing direct sound on the audience area. It's very common for the stage wash to be so loud that the PA cannot dominate the room. In fact, sometimes the best thing the audio tech can do it take the bass completely out of the system. It's a mistake to assume this is a recipe for great bass tone.

Keep in mind the stage wash may consist of sound from your bass amp as well as bass going through various monitors. As an audio tech, I frequently pull the bass out of the subs and mains. But I don't typically pull bass out of the monitors without the ability to negotiate the change with the talent.

When the stage wash is excessive (during sound check), I will discuss the problem with the talent and ask the group leader to come out to the mix station and listen. This is the so the group leader can choose to improve the house sound by reducing how much bass is going through the monitors. IME, usually the group leader will reject the idea of turning down the bass on stage.

When bass is put in the PA, under most circumstances using a DI is the best option. There are exceptions where mic'ing a cab is a better choice. My impression is many audio techs prefer to avoid a mic. It's frequently not your call.

In regards to having good tone and control over it: There is a pretty significant disconnect between what we want to happen and what actually happens. This may seem offensive, but it may actually be good advice to Lower you expectations.

 

[borgward]

We are not talking stadiums or 3000 seat halls. I do expect the sound on stage to not suck. That boom was anytime I played the E string and that's after trimming Bass way down on my end. Like the other strings sounded OK but E string came out way too strong. Did not do that the day before or this morning's practice. Possible that there was some feedback into my amp because of a poor DI?

My call is whether or not Bass goes through soundboard. Of course it's sound tech call whether mic, DI, or Line out goes to soundboard.

 

[JazznFunk]

I agree that a lot of audio techs overhype the subs. However, I would offer caution: It's entirely conceivable that the low end could be overbearing on stage and yet sound perfectly balanced out in the audience.

100% agreed - and if ithe low end is overbearing on stage because of the FOH mix, and you are being told 'don't turn your amp up', then it renders your amp useless in most cases. It's a round-robin I dealt with too many times on festival stages, and it's why I quit bringing a rig and just went direct. That's a whole other thread though.

 

[JazznFunk]

We are not talking stadiums or 3000 seat halls. I do expect the sound on stage to not suck. That boom was anytime I played the E string and that's after trimming Bass way down on my end. Like the other strings sounded OK but E string came out way too strong. Did not do that the day before or this morning's practice. Possible that there was some feedback into my amp because of a poor DI?

My call is whether or not Bass goes through soundboard. Of course it's sound tech call whether mic, DI, or Line out goes to soundboard.

A poor DI wouldn't cause feedback, but too much bass elsewhere on stage in a monitor (drum monitors are usually suspect in that case) can give the impression of 'feedback', especially if the tech (monitor/FOH) has also compressed the life out of your signal so that it's either 'on or off' in terms of attack and sustain. I've experienced the exact thing you did, and the direct box is not to blame. Combine that with flabby subs in the FOH mix and it's mud city.... and it makes it almost impossible to play.

 

[borgward]

100% agreed - and if ithe low end is overbearing on stage because of the FOH mix, and you are being told 'don't turn your amp up', then it renders your amp useless in most cases. It's a round-robin I dealt with too many times on festival stages, and it's why I quit bringing a rig and just went direct. That's a whole other thread though.

Was just told sound was good in the audience. So what could have caused that tremendous E string Boom on stage? It was nerve racking any time I used the E string.

 

[agedhorse]

Maybe it was the acoustic environment of the stage itself?

 

[JazznFunk]

Was just told sound was good in the audience. So what could have caused that tremendous E string Boom on stage? It was nerve racking any time I used the E string.

The stage itself being boomy, a buildup of bass information through various monitors on stage on top of that, etc. Too many variables to list really.

 

[David Morison]

Keep in mind the stage wash may consist of sound from your bass amp as well as bass going through various monitors. As an audio tech, I frequently pull the bass out of the subs and mains. But I don't typically pull bass out of the monitors without the ability to negotiate the change with the talent.

When the stage wash is excessive (during sound check), I will discuss the problem with the talent and ask the group leader to come out to the mix station and listen. This is the so the group leader can choose to improve the house sound by reducing how much bass is going through the monitors. IME, usually the group leader will reject the idea of turning down the bass on stage.

In this day & age where splitting an input to two channels of the sound desk is so easy, if I'm asked to give much bass into monitor wedges it's almost certainly going to be a second channel with lots of LF shelved down, which can help avoid mud & boominess somewhat.

 

[JazznFunk]

In this day & age where splitting an input to two channels of the sound desk is so easy, if I'm asked to give much bass into monitor wedges it's almost certainly going to be a second channel with lots of LF shelved down, which can help avoid mud & boominess somewhat.

This is what I preferred when I went direct-only. There was so much low end information swirling around from the mains and the drum monitor, that in my personal wedge, I just wanted upper mids and a touch of treble to hear my attack. The nature of the monitors themselves usually shelved a bit of the low end by default but it depended on the type of wedges in play.

 

[agedhorse]

In the days where monitor consoles were common, the monitor mixes were completely independent of FOH already. EQ and polarity were set as needed.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Correct way to connect Amp to sound system using DI box? Amp only had Speaker out. No line out, preamp out, etc. I used amp the night before. No problem. While playing next day w/DI box sound people used the sound was very boomie, especially when I used the E string. Turned Bass almost off on amp to no avail. Years ago I had similar experience with another amp. Maybe they did connect the box correctly or maybe using the DI box is not a good idea.

I had to do that with a Yamaha 115 combo once. Was pretty simple actually, I plugged my bass into the DI and it ran a cord to my amp and to the sound board. Basically it was a DI/Splitter box. Guitarist told the sound guy I needed one and in about 10-seconds we were all set. Reason your changing the bass EQ on your amp had no effect on the boominess you were hearing out front was because they split out the signal directly from your bass to their soundboard before it went into your amp. Without a DI out from your amp, they could use a splitter running a signal our of your effects send/out and sending one unbalanced 1/4" plug to the board, and the other line out of the splitter back into the effects-return/in of you amp. That's not the best signal but it will work. Other than that, the only way to get the sound of your bass from your amp is to mic it. Sounds to me like the sound guy wasn't all that good. He's the one who was shaping your sound to go out to the Front of the House.

I have a WTDI stompbox DI with built-in Eden WT preamp. I plug into it and then run the XLR out to the sound board or use the 1/4" unbalanced line-level connector into the power section of a backline (plug into the amp's effects return) so I can use my preamp and the backline's power. I can also run that into the Box; stomp on the bypass switch and run the 1/4" connector to my amp and the XLR to the sound board. That way the board gets the signal of my bass without the amp and I still an send my bass signal to the input of my amp.

You can understand why including a quiet DI signal out became a big deal with amps. Every amp I've had since about 2006 had one.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

Some gigs be boomy, some be not.

If all are boomy, then there is a problem to fix. A DI Box is not the cause or fix.