Just say the word "hollow" and try to imagine how that sounds. Your idea of how it sounds is probably pretty close. Terms such as "hollow" and "bright" are supposed to be self explanatory.
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Considering Upgrading Jazz Pickups, NJ4SV possibly
- Thread starter Valerus
- Start date
I bet that sounds pretty good in a band. I like scooped mids for solo playing though.
If you love how they sound, have you considered a noise gate?
I had the same issue. I tried Dimarzio Ultra Jazz, and was underwhelmed. I tried Q-tuners and was underwhelmed (especially considering the hype). These hum-cancelling pickups just didn't have the sweet tone of the Basslines single coils I had originally. I just replaced one of the Q-tuners with a true single coil--Rio Grande Muy Grande--and WOW, sounds friggin' awesome. And the hum ain't that bad.
About that other noise you hear, is the control cavity shielded? Does the control plate come into contact with the shielding? Is the shielding grounded?
True vintage tone, as in 1960's Jazz basses, came from pure single coils, which, as far as I know, were the only Jazz bass pickups of the time. Vintage-voiced single coils are typically bright, with more inherent treble than hum-canceling variants. The richness and warmth came from the amps of the day, flatwound strings, and rolling off the treble. Listen to Bob Marley and early Led Zeppelin. Those are single coils. If you roll off the treble on your MIM Jazz, you should get something more like the "vintage" tone in your head. (Overwound single coils, like Basslines SJB-2 Hot for J-bass, will have more lows and low-mids, and less treble. But those are not vintage-voiced pickups.)
The same is true of P-basses, by the way. Vintage-voiced split-coils have lots of inherent treble and clarity, but the stereotypical "vintage tone" comes from using flats and/or rolling off the treble.
Edit: For a good explanation of this, check out DiMarzio's description of its Area J pickups, which are designed to produce vintage tone with no single coil hum. Look at the "sound" chart, and notice how they actually have lots of treble and relatively less bass: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Thanks for that explanation, that helped quite a bit. I'm not so sure I want a pure vintage tone then, but not totally modern either. You mentioned early Led Zeppelin and I can see what you mean, however when I listen to "Hey Hey What Can I Do" I hear a clear and defined tone. Would you consider that tone a vintage tone? I really like it.
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Correct. The first replacement humcanceling Jazz pickups were the DiMarzio Model Js in 1979.
Some early Zep was also a Gibson EB-1.
+1
This is something I keep telling people that think P basses are dark and muddy. With flats, a foam mute, etc, it will sound thumpy, but they were never without treble.
Thanks for prompting me to listen to that track. I'd definitely classify that as "vintage" tone. (Given the date and instrument, how could it not be vintage tone?) It's an excellent example of the clarity available from Leo's classic designs, which didn't always come to the fore on older recordings, including Zeppelin. Of course, the player and recording engineer had something to do with it.
- Aug 21, 2008
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It was because at that time the bass was a background instrument. Even Leo intended it to be a replacement for an upright, and it was suppose to sound like one too! That's why they had string mutes. Bass was expected to be a vague thump in the background.
All basses came with flats as standard until the 80's. That's only 30 years ago! Rotosound was the first round wound strings, and most people never saw or heard of them until Roundabout by Yes. When I got my first Rick in '74, it had flats. When I started using Rotos people would give me grief because my bass sounded like a guitar to them! It didn't help that I also sometimes used a fuzz pedal.
So you were expected to use a Fender P bass and get the traditional P bass tone. The generic name for electric basses was "Fender bass" back in the 70's.
So my point is that while the early electric bass designs were more than capable in getting a bright tone, the strings and amps didn't exist yet for that tone. JPJ used round wounds on his Jazz, but played through an Acoustic 360 with the big folded horn 18" cabs. You didn't get any highs from those.
So it was the typical tone for a bass to have, and many recording engineers expected a P bass with flats, and that was the tone they new how to get.
These days bass is a respected instrument in its own right. That's a good thing!
- Aug 21, 2008
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That's easy enough to do. To don't use scooped mids much because mids are where the tone of the bass is IMO. I use the same tone for solos as I do for regular playing. I don't care for that real thin solo bass tone.
As far as hollow tones from a Jazz bass... that's what a Jazz bass sounds like with round wounds.
I understand the importance of not scooping your mids when playing in a band setting, the bass will simply get lost in the mix.
Also I know plenty of people love that mid growl in their sound.
In my case, I've noticed that when I scoop the mids when playing solo it sounds a lot better on the bass I currently own...but then again I like a P bass tone even more, and that's supposedly quite mid-heavy.
@SJD, I didn't realize flats were the standard for so long. Also, as a Who fanatic, one of my reference points for "vintage" tone has always been Entwistle, who I gather was one of the few to use rounds and a bright tone in the 1960's. Others must have done this too, but I can't think of any at the moment.
- Aug 21, 2008
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Entwistle was actually using nylon tape wounds on songs like My Generation. Same thing with Larry Graham. They are pretty bright sounding for flats. Graham Maybe used them on a P bass clone on all those old Joe Jackson songs.
Rototsound first made the Swing Bass 66 set in 1966, though they seem to say Entwistle used them in 1963.
But yeah, John and Chris Squire and Greg Lake (and others) were pioneering that bright up front tone.
So since we're on the subject of pickups, which pup would be a good match for that tone (realizing there are other factors such as amp, strings etc)?
I would think any good vintage-voiced pickup could get you there. I have noiseless Fralins on my four string J, and they do the trick. For good vintage tone, IMO you cannot go wrong with Fralins. I'd certainly recommend them over the Nordstrands in my Jazz V, which are also excellent, but have a more modern tone. Other good choices might be Seymour Duncan Basslines SJB-1, Duncan Antiquities, Fender's Custom Shop 60's, G&L's vintage alnico single coils, maybe Aero Type 1, and DiMarzio's noiseless Area J. (DiMarzio doesn't make a vintage-voiced pure single coil.) I've played basses with the Aeros and the G&L's (in the JB mostly), and both sound like classic J-bass pickups to me.
I'd recommend reading that giant sticky about J-bass pickups, which contains lots of useful reviews. At a certain point, distinguishing between pickups of a given category like "vintage J" is splitting hairs, but these small differences are meaningful to many players.
Yeah, I read the sticky, every page and that is how I came to the conclusion of nordstrands. I was also considering SD Antiquity II's.
Funny, I was just listening to a recording of a fellow TB'er where he has saying he has nordstrand pickups in his bass. I really liked his tone. It's here if curious
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9653100&posted=1#post9653100
I think I was getting confused about "vintage" tone because as an example, people point to Jamerson and when I listen to those clips, the sound is broader and not as defined as in that Zeppelin clip. I don't want to go that direction, I'm looking for more clarity and definition but with good solid lows and mids and not so thin highs.
Jamerson was typically (always?) playing a P-bass, so yes it sounds quite different. That's just another species of "vintage tone."
For the "clarity and definition" with "solid lows," I bet you'd really like Nordstrands. The consensus seems to be that Fralins are "loose" in the lows relative to Nordstrands, and IME that generalization is correct. My Nordstrand NJ5FS have tight lows with lots of clarity, and a smooth punch. For max versatility, go for the noiseless NJ4SV. I'm thinking about some NJ4SE for my incoming G&L JB, but who knows? I'll keep the stock singles for awhile.
Thanks, that is very helpful!
I was thinking about NJ4's over NJ4SV because I heard you lose a little something with the noiseless, but who knows maybe it's such a subtle difference that I wouldn't notice.
After re-reading this thread, it sounds like the NJ4SV's are sort of a middle ground between vintage and modern?
I think that's a great way of putting it. They truly are great pickups, I hope that I hadn't accidentally indicated otherwise when mentioning my plans to sell mine.
I swapped out a set of EMG-JVs for the Nordstrands, and it was truly a delightful change.
I have the five string version, NJ5FS, and I think that's a reasonable categorization. They don't have the warm, chewy texture I associate with vintage tone. They have a little modern "sheen," but it's passive J-bass tone nonetheless. And I really don't think you lose much going noiseless. There's a little less "air" and "sparkle" in the high end.
