What are some of the darker sounding J pickups (along the lines of EMG-JV's). How would you describe the character of the stock MIM Jazz pickups, so that I have a reference to compare?
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Considering Upgrading Jazz Pickups, NJ4SV possibly
- Thread starter Valerus
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What are some of the darker sounding J pickups (along the lines of EMG-JV's). How would you describe the character of the stock MIM Jazz pickups, so that I have a reference to compare?
I personally don't have the experience to properly answer this, but I hope someone else in this thread does!
I don't know anything about those EMG's, but J pickups can sound darker relative to vintage-voiced pickups for a few reasons, often from overwinding or a hum-canceling design, and wire choice. (I'm sure other factors are involved, which a true expert like SGD could explain.)
Overwinding reduces treble response, and increases output and low mids. Lindy Fralin has charts on his site that show this, and he offers overwinding by special order. The Seymour Duncan Basslines SJB-2 Hot for J-bass is an example. It's a heavily overwound version of the vintage-voiced SJB-1, so it will have a muted treble response and fatter low end. (I used to have the P-bass version, which is definitely darker and fatter than a vintage-voiced P pickup.) The Basslines Hot Stack is heavily wound, and the stack design will also decrease the high end. I've never tried one, but it should sound darker than a vintage voiced pickup.
DiMarzio's Model J has high output and is hum-canceling, and, lo and behold, its treble rating is lower than the vintage voiced Area J, and its bass rating is higher.
Nordstrand's NJ4SE is a little darker and fatter than the NJ4SV, but they explain it comes from choosing a finer gauge wire. Take a look:
http://nordstrandpickups.com/bass-pickups/traditional/
Stock Fender MIM pickups are in the vintage voiced category IMO.
You can learn a lot about this from the pickup manufacturers' web sites. Some of them have tone charts and explain their designs.
- Aug 21, 2008
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Stacked designs actually decreases the low end because of phase cancelation. Stacked pickups are usually overwound to compensate for this. Otherwise they sound very thin and bright.
EMG Js are stacked.
The DiMarzio Model J sounds like it does not because it is hum canceling, but because it was made to sound fatter. It uses steel poles with ceramic magnets. The steel poles increase the inductance. The ceramic magnets are brighter than alnicos, so that allowed them to wind it hotter. This was what people wanted from replacement pickups when these were introduced. These were sort of based on the Model P, which is made the same way, and was intended to get a bigger tone from a P bass. They are fairly old designs and were never intended to sound vintage, since they were replacing the stock pickup.
You have to think that when Jazz pickups were designed, they were used with flats and less than hi-fi amps. So when round wounds where more common some people wanted more lows and mids.
Thinner wire produces a tighter tone with more mids. It can be very bright sounding, as evidenced in Rickenbacker pickups, which use 44 gauge wire (Fender uses 42 on regular Jazz pickups), and many old single coils like DeArmonds.
But the thinner wire also lets you wind more wire on the bobbin, and that will make it darker, if that's what you want to do. The DC resistance s also much higher for thinner wire, but that doesn't mean it's louder.
Thicker wire gets a deeper tone, with more of a scooped mid sound. You can hear this with heavy insulation builds also, like heavy formvar. I make some pickups with 40 gauge wire, and it's deep and smooth sounding, and kind of hollow in the neck position.
Yeah, well that's pretty much how they made them. Some Fender Jazz pickups use plastic bobbins, steel poles and ceramic magnets though. That's not a bad thing, just depends on the tone you want.
This is a good time to be a bassist. Before DiMarzio and Hi-A (Bartolini) replacement pickups came out in the late 70's, there was nothing but the stock pickups. If you wanted something different, you had to stick a Gibson pickup on a Fender, or a Fender pickup on a Gibson. Now you have choices.
Yes, thanks for all that useful, interesting info. I had always thought that in-line hum-canceling pickups generally had less treble than their otherwise similar single coil counterparts, and thus could be described as "darker," even if they're replicating vintage tone. My Lindy Fralin Split-Jazz have less treble sparkle than pure singles, for example. That said, it's a small difference and they're still a variation on vintage tone, unlike the DiMarzio Model J.
Also, I'm wondering why stacked pickups have phase cancellation issues, but in-line humbuckers don't. Is it because, in linear pickups, each string's signal passes through only one coil, as in a pure single, whereas in a stacked version all signal passes through two RWRP coils?
Also, I'm wondering why stacked pickups have phase cancellation issues, but in-line humbuckers don't. Is it because, in linear pickups, each string's signal passes through only one coil, as in a pure single, whereas in a stacked version all signal passes through two RWRP coils?
- Aug 21, 2008
- 10,386
- 253
- 68
- Disclosures
- Owner, SGD Music Products
Yes, with inline (split) humbuckers, they are actually two single coils connected together, usually in series. The two coils are wired out-of-phase, but have opposite magnetic polarity. That puts them back in phase, but noise doesn't rely on the magnets to get picked up, so it cancels out when the outputs are combined.
The reason a split coil humbucker might sound different is because it's two smaller coils, instead of one larger coil. The inductance will be different.
By comparison, a regular dual coil humbucker senses the strings at two locations. The two coils are out-of-phase, and have opposite magnetic polarity. But there is a small area between the two coils that gets canceled out, which is the high frequencies. So between sensing the strings in a wider patch, and some high end phase cancelation, and low end reinforcement, you get a thicker tone than a single coil.
With stacked pickups, both coils are sensing the same strings. The two coils are also wired up out of phase. The magnet polarity is opposite since they either use two sets of magnets, or the magnets run through both coils. The issue is that the bottom coil is still sensing the strings, and if you listen to that coil, is senses mostly low frequencies. Since both coils are sensing the same low frequencies, and they are out-of-phase, they cancel out to a degree.
Some of the newer stacked designs used for guitar pickups place a magnetic shield between the top and bottom coil so the bottom is just sensing hum. But then you have the situation where the top coil is smaller and the magnets are shorter, so it sounds a little different.
This isn't to say that both can't sound like real single coils, but they may not sound like a particular single coil. So it might not be exactly like a particular Jazz, but like a slightly different jazz pickup.
I don't think people should get too hung up on expecting only one tone from a bass... there is no right or wrong, just different. If everyone's bass sounded the same, that would be boring, right?
Awesome info! I'm fascinated by pickup design, and in this thread you've basically written a treatise on J-bass pickups, which should probably be a sticky. I'm sure many TB'ers could benefit from understanding a little more about why some pickups sound the way they do.
Time to start thinking about some for my incoming G&L JB.....
Time to start thinking about some for my incoming G&L JB.....
- Aug 21, 2008
- 10,386
- 253
- 68
- Disclosures
- Owner, SGD Music Products
Awesome info! I'm fascinated by pickup design, and in this thread you've basically written a treatise on J-bass pickups, which should probably be a sticky. I'm sure many TB'ers could benefit from understanding a little more about why some pickups sound the way they do.
Time to start thinking about some for my incoming G&L JB.....
I was always one of these people that took everything apart. I started doing guitar repairs after I broke the wires from the pickup to the switch on an old Norma violin bass, and accidentally wired them back up out of phase. Then I did the same thing on my Sekovia Les Paul copy and added a phase switch. Then my friends wanted me to do that to their guitars.
After you take enough pickups apart you start to get an idea on how they work. When I got series into making pickups six years ago, I studied all the various types to see why they sound like they do.
It's fun to try out new ideas and see what you come up with, although it's very time consuming.
