A drummer in a band I was in said to me "You're putting too much in".
My reply to him was "You're not putting enough in!".
My reply to him was "You're not putting enough in!".
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Conversation I've had with my drummer
- Thread starter haybik_gibon_31
- Start date
I think he was feeling some shakiness on your timing. The example you posted sounded shaky to me at a few points; hitting the 2nd or 4th 16th note of a beat is not a trivial thing.
But rather than say your timing is off, he asked you to simplify in the hopes it would steady you up.
I feel like there was also a self-serving component to his request though.
I will say many of my favorite arrangements of bass and drums come from Parliament/Funkadelic. On there songs almost always either the bass part is simple and the drums step out with more complexity and syncopation, or it’s the opposite: the drums are simple, straightforward, and grounded while the bass line showcases the syncopation and complexity.
This is a good way to share and work as a team. The question to be answered is whether your drummer friend will ever return the favor and play simply to allow you to step out some.
But rather than say your timing is off, he asked you to simplify in the hopes it would steady you up.
I feel like there was also a self-serving component to his request though.
I will say many of my favorite arrangements of bass and drums come from Parliament/Funkadelic. On there songs almost always either the bass part is simple and the drums step out with more complexity and syncopation, or it’s the opposite: the drums are simple, straightforward, and grounded while the bass line showcases the syncopation and complexity.
This is a good way to share and work as a team. The question to be answered is whether your drummer friend will ever return the favor and play simply to allow you to step out some.
I haven’t read any of the other replies so if the topic has gone further I apologize.
I think you are over analyzing and reading way too much into his comments. Just play and keep playing. It doesn’t sound like you guys have spent much time together as a band. Concentrate on getting together and getting your tunes tight. Maybe after doing that you find you don’t work so well together. Don’t get bent out of shape over a small perceived criticism.
People say stupid stuff all the time. Ive been in the same band for 21 years. Lots of time on the road. Lots of songs. Lots of arguments. The point remains the same though. We want to make the best music we can together.
I think you are over analyzing and reading way too much into his comments. Just play and keep playing. It doesn’t sound like you guys have spent much time together as a band. Concentrate on getting together and getting your tunes tight. Maybe after doing that you find you don’t work so well together. Don’t get bent out of shape over a small perceived criticism.
People say stupid stuff all the time. Ive been in the same band for 21 years. Lots of time on the road. Lots of songs. Lots of arguments. The point remains the same though. We want to make the best music we can together.
I think that was the drummers most polite way of telling you that you may not be up to his standard. Hard to get a full picture from the clip you shared, but to me it sounds a little sloppy. In the context of a tight drummer and band, it may be enough to make the whole band sound sloppy. He’s probably trying to say, focus on how what you’re playing contributes to the whole sound and band. Harsh reality.
I have the same problem, in reverse. A friend and neighbor is a drummer who likes to get together and jam. The issue is that he's so focused on getting in lots of nifty fills that HE loses the timing with great regularity. Bad enough the bass gets off, but when the drummer goes wayward the party's over.
I've had the same conversation with him that your drummer has broached with you. Keep it simple until you have it nailed. The "Bass is boring" comment is not necessarily an indictment of the instrument, but an observation that, as its primary objective, bass needs to carry the beat and basic musical trajectory. Nothing sexy. Drums, the same. The two are the platform on which the band stands. Foundations are tedious, but essential. Once that objective is mastered, improvisation can follow. Maybe.
I'd much rather have a boring root player that rolls like a metronome than a frill machine that can't keep a beat. I suspect that your drummer feels the same way.
I've had the same conversation with him that your drummer has broached with you. Keep it simple until you have it nailed. The "Bass is boring" comment is not necessarily an indictment of the instrument, but an observation that, as its primary objective, bass needs to carry the beat and basic musical trajectory. Nothing sexy. Drums, the same. The two are the platform on which the band stands. Foundations are tedious, but essential. Once that objective is mastered, improvisation can follow. Maybe.
I'd much rather have a boring root player that rolls like a metronome than a frill machine that can't keep a beat. I suspect that your drummer feels the same way.
Last edited:
"Busy" is relative.
Relative to the song: not all grooves support all songs. Unless the band is intentionally putting a spin on a song, it's best to try to mimic what known bassists do in any given genre.
Relative to the band: not everyone agrees what others should do within the group context. In terms of basslines, some want us to be super simple, other want us to be Jaco. Typically, it's somewhere in between. If you want to play with people, you need figure out were they'll be happiest.
Relative to you: you have your desired styles, just like the rest of us. You need to find playmates that enjoy doing things that will let you insert your style.
Regarding your clip, I did feel some timing issues, but without a drumbeat, it's hard to be sure. Drummers will pick up on that instantly and it will bother them - their our partner in the groove. Without anything but your story, I have no idea if your drummer is competent. But I will say, that I was very lucky to play with several very solid drummers who were kind enough to point out where I was doing good and where I wasn't, as I was going through this stage of my "career" and am very grateful for them. I'm nothing special, but it's rare that I don't get compliments from new drummers. It's about timing and playing a clean appropriate line that supports the groove. It's not about trying to be JJ or Sheehan or Jaco all the time.
Relative to the song: not all grooves support all songs. Unless the band is intentionally putting a spin on a song, it's best to try to mimic what known bassists do in any given genre.
Relative to the band: not everyone agrees what others should do within the group context. In terms of basslines, some want us to be super simple, other want us to be Jaco. Typically, it's somewhere in between. If you want to play with people, you need figure out were they'll be happiest.
Relative to you: you have your desired styles, just like the rest of us. You need to find playmates that enjoy doing things that will let you insert your style.
Regarding your clip, I did feel some timing issues, but without a drumbeat, it's hard to be sure. Drummers will pick up on that instantly and it will bother them - their our partner in the groove. Without anything but your story, I have no idea if your drummer is competent. But I will say, that I was very lucky to play with several very solid drummers who were kind enough to point out where I was doing good and where I wasn't, as I was going through this stage of my "career" and am very grateful for them. I'm nothing special, but it's rare that I don't get compliments from new drummers. It's about timing and playing a clean appropriate line that supports the groove. It's not about trying to be JJ or Sheehan or Jaco all the time.
Timing could use some work for sure. Sometimes running issues can be exacerbated with a real drummer that has his own pocket.
Honestly, playing covers is something I would HIGHLY recommend doing while you're learning each other. It gives you both baselines (not bass lines) that your can expect from each other and an idea of what the pocket/groove should be. Once you and the drummer start to mesh and gel together then creating will be much easier and much more productive. Think of the covers as ice breaker warm ups to get everybody comfortable with each other musically.
Honestly, playing covers is something I would HIGHLY recommend doing while you're learning each other. It gives you both baselines (not bass lines) that your can expect from each other and an idea of what the pocket/groove should be. Once you and the drummer start to mesh and gel together then creating will be much easier and much more productive. Think of the covers as ice breaker warm ups to get everybody comfortable with each other musically.
This, definitely.
Speaking from my experiences as a 65-year drummer and a 5-year bassist, I've learned that locking in together is usually most successful when (1) both drummer and bassist stick to conservative patterns, (2) the drums are busy and the bass is simple, or (3) the bass is busy and the drummer simplifies. If you're both busy at the same time -- i.e. if you're playing 16th notes/rests together -- you'd better be precisely locked in or it's going to sound like mush. I can't comment on the drummer, but your audio is not at that level of precision. So my suggestion would be to have a little conversation about roles before jumping into a jam on a particular tune. If I were on drums in your session, I probably would have chosen to dial back what I was doing and just enjoyed the groove.
That being said, the drummer's choice of words might have been off-putting, especially about telling you what the bass is "supposed " to do. But I've learned a ton over the years from guys who were giving me very valuable insights in insulting and sometimes hurtful form. Try to develop a thicker skin and give serious consideration to the advice. Some of the people who have taught me the most have been jerks.
There are people who hold this belief wholeheartedly. I find a lot of them aren't bass players. Personally, I don't think there are any boring instruments... only boring people making boring music. And that's not to say that simple = boring... we can play simply, but where it becomes boring is when we play simply by default. I believe in letting the music dictate what happens next, and if that means being simple, then I'll do it. If it means not being simple, I'll do that too. The bottom line is that it has to be a conscious, deliberate choice and not simply default. And I'm sure it doesn't have to be said that the opposite is also true... it can be hard to appreciate those who play everything as complicated as they can by default too.
However, if your drummer was trying to make a point that would be helpful to you, it's that it's good to start simple until you really build up the chops to explore with confidence and without breaking the music.
I had to do this too... when I was starting out, I had plenty of guitarists or frontmen or BLs tell me I needed to pull it back and, in essence, stick to boring. I was playing a lot of blues music, so this happened with some regularity. I usually didn't like being told that. But, several years and much more experience later, I find myself in a place where people (sometimes, the same exact people as before) are actually enjoying my exploratory playing. I've improved my "chops" such that I can execute that sort of thing confidently without flubbing, sure. But even more importantly, I've also improved my musical sense such that I can anticipate what will work in a song and what won't before I do it. I've played a wide enough range of genres, styles, and "dialects" of bass playing that I have many tools to choose from.
If you stick at it and put yourself in situations where you can explore and push boundaries without having to be too afraid of failing, such as jam sessions, then you can develop those skills too.
Not sure how old you are. I had NO interest in covers when I was younger. I only wanted to play original music, and started playing in punk and hardcore bands from like 12 or 13 onwards. The only time we did covers was halloween, when everyone's band dressed up as a famous band and did that band's set for like an annual halloween gig (misfits, minor threat, etc).
It would be impossible to convince the 13 year old me to do covers, I don't know that I would even try if I was able to go back in time. BUT I desperately wish I had done a ton of covers when I was younger. Playing other people's music is a great way to learn about music and work on your chops at the same time. Learn why music you like works, etc.
A bad analogy but I'll put it to you this way, if you were trying to design a new sports car to compete with a Porsche or Corvette or something, would you rather come at it with years of experience working on sports cars, or come at it with no experience having no idea what you're doing? learning other people's music gives you something to practice, and prevents you from trying to reinvent things, which would be hard enough with a music background, which you admittedly do not have.
It would be impossible to convince the 13 year old me to do covers, I don't know that I would even try if I was able to go back in time. BUT I desperately wish I had done a ton of covers when I was younger. Playing other people's music is a great way to learn about music and work on your chops at the same time. Learn why music you like works, etc.
A bad analogy but I'll put it to you this way, if you were trying to design a new sports car to compete with a Porsche or Corvette or something, would you rather come at it with years of experience working on sports cars, or come at it with no experience having no idea what you're doing? learning other people's music gives you something to practice, and prevents you from trying to reinvent things, which would be hard enough with a music background, which you admittedly do not have.
He’s half-right; you do need to learn to walk before you run. That said, when are you going to do that learning if not while jamming/rehearsing?
I didn’t listen to your clip (sorry), but one more general statement: Bass is not a boring instrument, but if you’re throwing in your runs because you “got bored,” there’s a good chance they actually will end being superfluous/over-playing.
“Foundation” doesn’t need to imply “simple,” but it does need to imply that every note needs to really serve the song/context. Melodic instruments leave a lot of room for interpretation and error, but rhythm instruments really need to nail it or people will notice. You can be busy and creative but it has to really “work,” and so I don’t think it’s wrong at ALL to be quite adventurous in rehearsal, as long as it’s with the intent of finding the right groove and boiling it down for the stage.
I didn’t listen to your clip (sorry), but one more general statement: Bass is not a boring instrument, but if you’re throwing in your runs because you “got bored,” there’s a good chance they actually will end being superfluous/over-playing.
“Foundation” doesn’t need to imply “simple,” but it does need to imply that every note needs to really serve the song/context. Melodic instruments leave a lot of room for interpretation and error, but rhythm instruments really need to nail it or people will notice. You can be busy and creative but it has to really “work,” and so I don’t think it’s wrong at ALL to be quite adventurous in rehearsal, as long as it’s with the intent of finding the right groove and boiling it down for the stage.
I'd expect the "...it's a boring instrument" line from a guitarist, but not a drummer 
Best retort if they want to make something of it is "Ok, let's bust out the metronome". That has ended several arguments with problematic drummers lol. I'll also add I very rarely have problems with drummers.
Best retort if they want to make something of it is "Ok, let's bust out the metronome". That has ended several arguments with problematic drummers lol. I'll also add I very rarely have problems with drummers.
Since you've played other instruments, I would just ask yourself what you want to do with the bass. What kind of music do you want to play? Yes, fundamentals are key, and you should work on time, accuracy, all that jazz, just like you did with your other instruments. But what do you want to do? Figure that out, and then find the right people to do it with. This includes the ability to communicate agreeably/helpfully. I've met plenty of great musicians I had no interest in playing with. Like you, I have a day job and regularly gigging is not something I'm interested in, but I have found the right people to play with, and it's a joy.
Sounds fine to me, but also not much to it on it's own. I think the issue is that just getting together to jam on some riffs is likely not what this drummer wants to do. They want to play actual songs. I recommend you get another player in there, like guitarist or keys, to help flesh it all together and create something more complete. Or if you do jam again, you really have to play a cohesive harmonic progression on the bass to stand alone with a drummer.
Bass boring? It can be, but most of the time it's not. Most of the knuckleheads who would say such a thing have never really sat down and listened to the bass parts in popular music. They think it is some boring line, but I bet a lot of times there is more going on in there with the bass, they just can't hear it or pick up on it and they have most likely been around cover players who have just been playing basic roots parts. He brought up Sunshine of Your Love? Maybe the easiest Jack Bruce song to play. Tell him no, how about we do Crossroads and see what you think.
I auditioned a while back for a guy who had a little event band and some of the feedback was that he thought I played to much on some stuff. First, he just doesn't know the songs. Second, I've played Mustang Sally about 949,656 times and I am not playing that as is. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.
Lastly, I will say you must also keep the drummer in their place. No matter how good that drummer is, they are still a drummer. Remind them of that. They get a big head or act all uppity, tell them to just keep banging those sticks and let you worry about the music. (Now, I say this partly in jest because I know a lot of drummers that I really admire, I just want to keep them from getting a big head)
I auditioned a while back for a guy who had a little event band and some of the feedback was that he thought I played to much on some stuff. First, he just doesn't know the songs. Second, I've played Mustang Sally about 949,656 times and I am not playing that as is. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.
Lastly, I will say you must also keep the drummer in their place. No matter how good that drummer is, they are still a drummer. Remind them of that. They get a big head or act all uppity, tell them to just keep banging those sticks and let you worry about the music. (Now, I say this partly in jest because I know a lot of drummers that I really admire, I just want to keep them from getting a big head)
