Conversation I've had with my drummer

[fdeck]

I can't tell if the drummer was being tactless or clueless. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I think a better way of saying "bass is a boring instrument," is that good bass depends on mastery of the boring stuff, e.g., roots and time.

There's kind of a hierarchy of needs for bass in western music, and reinforcing the tone center (rhythm) and tempo (time) are the most primitive needs. The other instruments aren't always satisfying those needs, even the drums. I had a well respected singer tell me: "I need to rely on the bass because I can always hear it when everybody else is doing their crazy stuff."

Now, of course every instrument needs to master the boring stuff. That's part of how a band gets to the level of sounding "tight" for instance. The bass can carry them if they're not, and the band might still do OK, but it's hard for the rest of the band to carry the bassist.

It took me longer than it should have to learn this. I'm a pretty obnoxious bassist when it comes to playing notes, but I work very hard on being solid.

 

[LiptonJigglers]

Having a brother that's been playing drums for almost as long as I've been alive (53 years), I can grasp the drummers criticism.

Have you ever heard someone say; that person is such a "solid" bass player?

This generally refers to the bassists ability to provide a good tight groove foundation. One that locks in with the drums, making fundamental basics of the rhythm section reliably tight.
This "solid" foundation, provides the feel and momentum without being overtly technical. It doesn't have to be technical because it provides a platform for other musicians to travel upon.
It allows them to do their thing. The other musicians can rely upon, have faith in, don't have to worry about the rhythm section. Thus making other musicians job easier.

Developing this solid foundation requires both the bass and the drums to form a closer musical relationship. They have to become a well oiled machine.
Without it, the music will be all over the place.

("I've been "playing" musical instruments (started with violin, through keys, guitar and settled on bass) for a loong time but never had the discipline to practice seriously and get my chops up and be able to reliably play more than 2 pieces in their entirety without slipping up. 6 months ago something clicked and I've started taking it really seriously, practicing/playing 2-3 hours every day.")
This paragraph says it all. Your drummer can see your "lack of discipline". It shows in your timing which throws off the rhythm. Hence his criticism.
The use of the word "boring" is his way of saying: get back to basics.
Your self criticism confirms his criticism.. thus, there's no need to feel "jarred".


He's letting you know there are other things that require your attention before approaching the technical stuff. He needs a solid bassist first.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't practice fills and runs on the bass. He's simply requesting you to form a firmer foundation of the rhythm section.


Laying down a good garden bed, allows the plants to grow tall and the flowers to flourish.

 

[Topkat13]

It’s really OK if he thinks the bass is a boring instrument. Play fewer notes. Work on your timing.

 

[red_rhino]

Your first time playing with a drummer, you could do worse than just playing some covers. There will be plenty of time to do your creative thing once you two, and anyone else you jam with, start to gel.

This, this, this, and THIS. ^^^^^

The point of jamming with other people, especially if it's your first time playing with a drummer, is learning how to play with other people. Exploration is only productive when that foundation is in place. Even amongst experienced players, a big component of successfully jamming is figuring out how to communicate musically with the players around you.

Bass is anything but boring. Even within repetition, there is groove, feel, ambience, texture, etc. A very deep palette of sonic flavors are available to you.

Your drummer is correct. Focus on locking in together, even if that means working on some covers (there's a LOT of originality available to you even on covers). Every successful bass players knows how to groove. Once you can do that, the rest will come automatically.

 

[dedoonbass]

Bull, you flatly said the OP's timing isn't good.

That's unfounded, and not constructive. There's no metric for us to measure their timing by. It's also too short, there's no internal rhythmic reference points like there would be if they played that part in a loop or even within half of a complete song. It would be equally invalid for me to judge your timing as not good.

You may not like their playing in the sample but that is merely your subjective opinion which you're entitled to, but you're also couching your opinion with supposition where you say "explicitely [sic] asked him more precision".

The OP said no such thing in their account of what happened. The drummer said, according to the OP, "You're trying to explore too much. Bass is supposed to be the foundation. Bass is a boring instrument, it is what it is." The OP admitted, "My playing isn't anywhere as tight as I want it to be." These statements do not = timing not good.

It's not even clear that the sample the OP provided is literally from what they were playing at the time this happened with the drummer in question. He could play that part again with a rhythm track or a drummer then we can better judge how tight or loose they're playing.

Maybe you're that drummer, you were there?

I don’t understand what you’re on about? Feel the pulse and it is obvious that the timing is rushed in the fills and dragged outside of them. It isn’t intentional. You don’t need anymore context than that to make that determination.

What the drummer said was douchey but try and gain some constructive criticism from that. Work on your timing and come out the other side a better player. Playing covers won’t hurt you either.

 

[80jazz]

The recording wasn't long enough to gauge how much business was going on.

I will agree with this.

Having drums along with the recording would help.
The line you posted seemed mostly alright. I wonder if you have a drummer who can't go with you or wants you to stay out of his way completely. If it's this, I would be concerned.

 

[Grinderman]

I don’t understand what you’re on about? Feel the pulse and it is obvious that the timing is rushed in the fills and dragged outside of them. It isn’t intentional. You don’t need anymore context than that to make that determination.

What the drummer said was douchey but try and gain some constructive criticism from that. Work on your timing and come out the other side a better player. Playing covers won’t hurt you either.

What is their intent, indeed? The whole whopping 16 seconds of recording the OP shared isn't much so I don't see how we're to know where they're at with it; whether it's part of something that they've played one, two, or ten times or if it's merely them noodling by themselves with their home recording setup on.

Hence I don't consider it enough to reasonably say flatly their timing is bad. It's not tight, and I don't doubt the OP when they say they want to play tighter, but to be fair to them, I'd need to hear more to categorically say their timing is bad.

 

[MasterG]

From the clip you posted I can't tell what you're trying to achieve. Maybe if you would've put a click along to it so we could tell what timing it was supposed to be at and help us feel the "groove" you were trying to get across to us.

 

[Bar Band Bassman]

BTW - "Are You Gonna Be My Girl" ain't so simple, either. Good luck finding a resolution to your conflict. Funny how hard it can be for us to make music the most important thing, even though ultimately it always will be.

The Bar Band Bassman

 

[fishdude101101]

Hi bass friends,

I was rather jarred with a conversation I've had with my friend who plays drums with me, and I'm here for some advice.

For a bit of context, I've been "playing" musical instruments (started with violin, through keys, guitar and settled on bass) for a loong time but never had the discipline to practice seriously and get my chops up and be able to reliably play more than 2 pieces in their entirety without slipping up. 6 months ago something clicked and I've started taking it really seriously, practicing/playing 2-3 hours every day.

I put together a group of friends who had similar yet different enough tastes to make our own music. My goal isn't to get up and running playing gigs, I have a day job (much respect to those who do both of them). What I'm really interested in is creating something with my friends on our own pace, having a good time and pouring my heart and soul into it.

My drummer is a seasoned musician, much better chops and a lot of experience but has stagnated over the years not really having any incentive to push himself.

Finally the story: I've finally gotten around to arranging a jam session with him after quite some time and I was stoked to play with a real drummer and not a click track. I said let's jam to some i-v-iv and warm up and started just playing just some root notes. After a while I got bored so started throwing in some sixteenth note fills, flourishes, whatever you want to call it. Nothing crazy, I'm not Jaco, Sheehan, Geddy; I'm just trying to groove. After a few repeats the drummer stops and tells me "You're trying to explore too much. Bass is supposed to be the foundation. Bass is a boring instrument, it is what it is." And asked if I knew how to play Sunshine of Your Love or Are You Gonna Be My Girl (lol) and told me I had to learn to walk before I could run. Now I really respect those artists and I greatly admire Jack Bruce, but as I said playing covers is not something I'm interested in. I learn them on my own time (I've been going through Shadows of Motown) and play to the recordings but I want to create. I was rather taken aback and said "ok I'm playing quarter root notes from now on" and did exactly that. Meanwhile he's playing his sick nasty drum fills over my bassline.

Now I know overplaying is a thing, and I'm still wet behind the ears no doubt. My playing isn't anywhere as tight as I want it to be. Still, I attached the recording of the culprit part and maybe you can tell me if I was overplaying or not (it's only me so it's lacking context, I know).

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It's jarring because while I'm not interested in playing solos or lead or whatever I still look up to players like Chris Squire and Geddy Lee and want to play cool stuff and groove my ass off. And well, it's my band. So, TB, am I being overly ambitious? Have you had a similar experience? Should I try to find a middle ground or should I try to look somewhere else?

Thanks for indulging in my unnecessarily long story, looking forward to hearing from you.

Man I'm just gonna be honest here, I've never known anybody with good chops that didn't spend some time playing covers. It will improve your playing all around. In the clip you posted I think you got a little behind timing wise in a couple spots. More experience is bow you fix that.

 

[Wasnex]

There is no need to get offended or to be rude to your friend. The drummers comments are really not right or wrong, but they do represent his perspective, goals and direction....which are apparently very different from yours. Musically the two of you don't really fit together. IMHO this is not something to get upset about, or burn a friendship over.

Keep him as a friend and find another drummer who is more interested in exploration and free jamming.

I do think it's important to say that finding the right fit is not necessarily easy. Also people tend to evolve, so what fits now may not be the right fit in the future. You may find that you have to compromise to some degree, otherwise you may be stuck playing by yourself.
Good luck!

 

[kmon]

I said "ok I'm playing quarter root notes from now on" and did exactly that.

Did it sound good?

 

[Thegreatzambini]

One of my best friends, who is also a phenomenal drummer, loves bass as much as I do, and he’s constantly saying the words “bass is king”

please don’t let anybody tell you that you should tone down or that your instrument should be played boringly….
And there have been many bass players from famous bands, throughout the decades, to prove this, and still be musical.

 

[jtg]

It's been said a number of ways, but I'll try it another:
If you are spraying notes on top of the groove, none of your notes, simple or busy, will be worth a thing. It's just noise. That's why your drummer doesn't like your out of time fills: you're just splatter painting on top of the guy who's doing the work. He's telling you to stop showing off and listen.
If your every note gives life to the pulse of the music and powers the groove, you can more or less play any notes you want and your drummer will love it - just like you love the drummer's sick, tasty pocket fills.
This is relatively easy to say in words but harder to know from the inside and execute.
But when you understand it, there is nothing boring about quarter notes.

 

[retslock]

The part you uploaded is a nice line. The timing could be a little tighter but the part itself is good. It sounds to me like he wants you to be his metronome.
Refer him to Peg by Steely Dan or Rock Steady by Aretha - two very different bass lines both played by Chuck Rainey or anything by James Jamerson. Wilton Felder shows how it’s done on some early Jackson 5 tracks too. Bass is essentially a counter melody to the lead part and is in no way a boring instrument when played well.
Having said that, groove is king. Whatever you play, play in time and make it groove.

 

[_Tay_]

Hi bass friends,

I was rather jarred with a conversation I've had with my friend who plays drums with me, and I'm here for some advice.

For a bit of context, I've been "playing" musical instruments (started with violin, through keys, guitar and settled on bass) for a loong time but never had the discipline to practice seriously and get my chops up and be able to reliably play more than 2 pieces in their entirety without slipping up. 6 months ago something clicked and I've started taking it really seriously, practicing/playing 2-3 hours every day.

I put together a group of friends who had similar yet different enough tastes to make our own music. My goal isn't to get up and running playing gigs, I have a day job (much respect to those who do both of them). What I'm really interested in is creating something with my friends on our own pace, having a good time and pouring my heart and soul into it.

My drummer is a seasoned musician, much better chops and a lot of experience but has stagnated over the years not really having any incentive to push himself.

Finally the story: I've finally gotten around to arranging a jam session with him after quite some time and I was stoked to play with a real drummer and not a click track. I said let's jam to some i-v-iv and warm up and started just playing just some root notes. After a while I got bored so started throwing in some sixteenth note fills, flourishes, whatever you want to call it. Nothing crazy, I'm not Jaco, Sheehan, Geddy; I'm just trying to groove. After a few repeats the drummer stops and tells me "You're trying to explore too much. Bass is supposed to be the foundation. Bass is a boring instrument, it is what it is." And asked if I knew how to play Sunshine of Your Love or Are You Gonna Be My Girl (lol) and told me I had to learn to walk before I could run. Now I really respect those artists and I greatly admire Jack Bruce, but as I said playing covers is not something I'm interested in. I learn them on my own time (I've been going through Shadows of Motown) and play to the recordings but I want to create. I was rather taken aback and said "ok I'm playing quarter root notes from now on" and did exactly that. Meanwhile he's playing his sick nasty drum fills over my bassline.

Now I know overplaying is a thing, and I'm still wet behind the ears no doubt. My playing isn't anywhere as tight as I want it to be. Still, I attached the recording of the culprit part and maybe you can tell me if I was overplaying or not (it's only me so it's lacking context, I know).

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It's jarring because while I'm not interested in playing solos or lead or whatever I still look up to players like Chris Squire and Geddy Lee and want to play cool stuff and groove my ass off. And well, it's my band. So, TB, am I being overly ambitious? Have you had a similar experience? Should I try to find a middle ground or should I try to look somewhere else?

Thanks for indulging in my unnecessarily long story, looking forward to hearing from you.

Tell him he's a sucka! As long as you're not over the top soloing all the time and you have groove then do what you like. Groove is the main thing here just like him and his "boring drums instruments".

Basically he has no idea. Sorry.

 

[Nashrakh]

A common attitude.
Every other member of the band knows your job better than you do.

I'm sick of this, as well. Is it a bass-specific thing that even those with no experience in the matter try to tell you what to play, without being able to clearly communicate what they actually want to hear in the first place?

 

[Deleted member 271037]

Based on that clip you're not overplaying but without hearing the drums it's impossible to say if your playing is ok or poor. It sounds like your timing may be a bit off. Maybe that's what your drummer means by "learning to walk before you can run". If that's the case he's giving you good advice.

If you post a new clip with an audible click track (or better still, when playing with your drummer) it will be much easier to evaluate your playing. Timing is everything with bass. If your timing is poor you've got to do what your drummer says and learn to walk before you can run.

 

[basseux]

Bull, you flatly said the OP's timing isn't good.

That's unfounded, and not constructive. There's no metric for us to measure their timing by. It's also too short, there's no internal rhythmic reference points like there would be if they played that part in a loop or even within half of a complete song. It would be equally invalid for me to judge your timing as not good.

An instrument played solo is implying pulse, tempo, metric, internal rythmic reference points, or whatever you want to call this.

I think we have all been at a point where we felt satisfied with the skill we reached on the matter, but another fellow musician said to us he required more.

This is standard learning and evolution process.

You may not like their playing in the sample but that is merely your subjective opinion which you're entitled to, but you're also couching your opinion with supposition where you say "explicitely [sic] asked him more precision".

It's not more subjective than asking a singer to sing more in tune, or a drummer to keep a steady rythm.

I don't see why bass would be immune to that sort of critics.

The OP said no such thing in their account of what happened. The drummer said, according to the OP, "You're trying to explore too much. Bass is supposed to be the foundation. Bass is a boring instrument, it is what it is." The OP admitted, "My playing isn't anywhere as tight as I want it to be." These statements do not = timing not good.

Yes OP admitted is timing is not as good as he wants it to be, so are you arguing against OP ?

It's not even clear that the sample the OP provided is literally from what they were playing at the time this happened with the drummer in question. He could play that part again with a rhythm track or a drummer then we can better judge how tight or loose they're playing.

Maybe you're that drummer, you were there?

Even if it wasn't the recording of the session with the drummer, the conclusion would be the same to me.

There are different levels to how tight one might think an isolated bass should sound.
In the mix with the drums it's most of the time more forgiving, but if it's not satisfying for the drummer, then quick win is to simplify and focus more on tightness, or just find someone else to play with.

Sometime I try to play drums to my isolated bass. When I find it's not comfortable enough, it means I have some things to work on.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

Hi bass friends,

I was rather jarred with a conversation I've had with my friend who plays drums with me, and I'm here for some advice.

For a bit of context, I've been "playing" musical instruments (started with violin, through keys, guitar and settled on bass) for a loong time but never had the discipline to practice seriously and get my chops up and be able to reliably play more than 2 pieces in their entirety without slipping up. 6 months ago something clicked and I've started taking it really seriously, practicing/playing 2-3 hours every day.

I put together a group of friends who had similar yet different enough tastes to make our own music. My goal isn't to get up and running playing gigs, I have a day job (much respect to those who do both of them). What I'm really interested in is creating something with my friends on our own pace, having a good time and pouring my heart and soul into it.

My drummer is a seasoned musician, much better chops and a lot of experience but has stagnated over the years not really having any incentive to push himself.

Finally the story: I've finally gotten around to arranging a jam session with him after quite some time and I was stoked to play with a real drummer and not a click track. I said let's jam to some i-v-iv and warm up and started just playing just some root notes. After a while I got bored so started throwing in some sixteenth note fills, flourishes, whatever you want to call it. Nothing crazy, I'm not Jaco, Sheehan, Geddy; I'm just trying to groove. After a few repeats the drummer stops and tells me "You're trying to explore too much. Bass is supposed to be the foundation. Bass is a boring instrument, it is what it is." And asked if I knew how to play Sunshine of Your Love or Are You Gonna Be My Girl (lol) and told me I had to learn to walk before I could run. Now I really respect those artists and I greatly admire Jack Bruce, but as I said playing covers is not something I'm interested in. I learn them on my own time (I've been going through Shadows of Motown) and play to the recordings but I want to create. I was rather taken aback and said "ok I'm playing quarter root notes from now on" and did exactly that. Meanwhile he's playing his sick nasty drum fills over my bassline.

Now I know overplaying is a thing, and I'm still wet behind the ears no doubt. My playing isn't anywhere as tight as I want it to be. Still, I attached the recording of the culprit part and maybe you can tell me if I was overplaying or not (it's only me so it's lacking context, I know).

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It's jarring because while I'm not interested in playing solos or lead or whatever I still look up to players like Chris Squire and Geddy Lee and want to play cool stuff and groove my ass off. And well, it's my band. So, TB, am I being overly ambitious? Have you had a similar experience? Should I try to find a middle ground or should I try to look somewhere else?

Thanks for indulging in my unnecessarily long story, looking forward to hearing from you.

i would never ever play with someone like this. move on.