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Cop Stop....Yet Again....
- Thread starter bryan gibson
- Start date
Is nobody going to address my story about the cop who fabricated a charge against my friend when my friend consented to a search because he knew he had nothing to hide? Many good points have been made about why you should not consent to a search, even if you know you have nothing to hide.
Also, just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean the cop will see it that way. Anything can be turned into evidence, like nortonrider pointed out with the screwdriver - conspiracy to commit burglary, right?! WELL THERE WAS EVIDENCE and now it's your word against the cop.
I've refused a search EVERY TIME I've ever been pulled over, and not once has the cop gone to "get a dog and do the search anyway" like someone else suggested - state, local, doesn't matter, they've never done it. In my experience, when I refuse a search, I am usually let go, because the cops decide I'm not worth the effort or something along those lines. I'm also a straight white male who shaves every day so I have it sort of easy.
About the "follow my pen with your eyes": in Pennsylvania atleast, this specific kind of "field sobriety test" is not admissible in court because any nystagmus at all can make you appear "intoxicated". A friend of mine once had a DUI thrown out because they took him in for a blood draw on the basis that he failed the horizontal gaze test or whatever - the "follow my pen" test.
Finally, to the guy who told that story about mouthing off to the cop about his license plate lights - you should be in movies.
Also, just because you have nothing to hide doesn't mean the cop will see it that way. Anything can be turned into evidence, like nortonrider pointed out with the screwdriver - conspiracy to commit burglary, right?! WELL THERE WAS EVIDENCE and now it's your word against the cop.
I've refused a search EVERY TIME I've ever been pulled over, and not once has the cop gone to "get a dog and do the search anyway" like someone else suggested - state, local, doesn't matter, they've never done it. In my experience, when I refuse a search, I am usually let go, because the cops decide I'm not worth the effort or something along those lines. I'm also a straight white male who shaves every day so I have it sort of easy.
About the "follow my pen with your eyes": in Pennsylvania atleast, this specific kind of "field sobriety test" is not admissible in court because any nystagmus at all can make you appear "intoxicated". A friend of mine once had a DUI thrown out because they took him in for a blood draw on the basis that he failed the horizontal gaze test or whatever - the "follow my pen" test.
Finally, to the guy who told that story about mouthing off to the cop about his license plate lights - you should be in movies.
stagebanter said:
Movies? More like a friggin nightmare. It wasn't until I learned that being pulled over repeatedly for little stuff like that gets old.
Mouthing off? That's all facts my friend.
Small town cops for you. Even my dad almost went ballistic over how kids were being treated.
I literally got drawn upon by a cop for walking next to the railroad tracks once. I think I was like 12 at the time. My buddy with me was cut loose, because his daddy was a lawyer. My dad was livid....
I was told by attorney to always refuse search without warrant and they can't detain you while they get one.
Oh, okay. Let me clarify.
So, the driver committed a traffic violation, and it can be ticketed. It's my decision to not ticket them. The law doesn't say anything about letting a driver go on a warning.
The way it is supposed to work is that cops are to ticket all drivers for all offenses and then in court, the judge can weigh in on whether to dismiss a charge or not.
what is always funny is when officers ask of there are any weapons in my vehicle.
There is always either a S&W 629 magna classic or a 629 mountain gun in my pickup (legal and on CCW)
they ALWAYS ask why I need to carry a .44 mag. For some reason big bore magnums upset them.
I make it clear that I use both as backups for hunting bear and wild pig. They are on my permit, only because that way I can throw them in the center console of my pickup, without worry about legality...
A few officers have recommended that I get a smaller pistol...
There is always either a S&W 629 magna classic or a 629 mountain gun in my pickup (legal and on CCW)
they ALWAYS ask why I need to carry a .44 mag. For some reason big bore magnums upset them.
I make it clear that I use both as backups for hunting bear and wild pig. They are on my permit, only because that way I can throw them in the center console of my pickup, without worry about legality...
A few officers have recommended that I get a smaller pistol...
Gaius46 said:
Finally. Someone said it. REASONABLE SUSPICION!! Enough of the probable cause claims.
And as far as TSA is concerned. They have no law enforcement authority. You cannot compare them to cops.
Sorry if I'm late with that. But I am just now getting caught up.
Here in Aus we've RBT's- Random Breath Test units. A bunch of cops in a intersection/major arterial & they stop EVERYONE!!!! EVERYONE.
Now, me being the bassist & hubby of the singer with the PA, I'm always late & I often get stopped- not only at the RBT's, but by regular car patrol cops that see a guy & a girl in a car- SUSPICIOUS!!!!!
I got it last gig- Sat night. My Wife & I stopped at a restaurant for a after gig bite & after the meal, as soon as I left the curb.... lights..... As usual, I pull over & the ONE or two drinks I had B4 the gig have well & truly gone from my breath/system - enough to register anyway. I usually say "I've just finished work & yep, I had one drink at the start" etc..
last Sat, as usual again, I blew 0.00 (limit is 0.05 -used to be 0.08 & before that JUST B4 I started driving [ C.'79 ] 0.1 - i.e.- very low) & they are -99% of the time at least - pleasant.
But, damn I do get sick of being stopped, when I'm driving damn near perfectly, car's obviously straight, & car is full of music gear.....
Rant over here too.
Now, me being the bassist & hubby of the singer with the PA, I'm always late & I often get stopped- not only at the RBT's, but by regular car patrol cops that see a guy & a girl in a car- SUSPICIOUS!!!!!
I got it last gig- Sat night. My Wife & I stopped at a restaurant for a after gig bite & after the meal, as soon as I left the curb.... lights..... As usual, I pull over & the ONE or two drinks I had B4 the gig have well & truly gone from my breath/system - enough to register anyway. I usually say "I've just finished work & yep, I had one drink at the start" etc..
last Sat, as usual again, I blew 0.00 (limit is 0.05 -used to be 0.08 & before that JUST B4 I started driving [ C.'79 ] 0.1 - i.e.- very low) & they are -99% of the time at least - pleasant.
But, damn I do get sick of being stopped, when I'm driving damn near perfectly, car's obviously straight, & car is full of music gear.....
Rant over here too.
Just to make sure you're safe don't have your Leatherman in your car when you're in Boston. Folding knives with a blade longer than 2.5" are illegal in Beantown.
In New York State don't carry marker pens. Marker pens are considered "graffiti tools" and can get you slapped with a class B misdemeanor. Granted for this one it has to be "under circumstances evincing an intent to use same in order to
damage such property" but that's quite plainly left to the police to decide. And if they get it wrong it'll be a judge who tells you after you spend a couple thousand on a lawyer.
New York also criminalizes possession of burglary tools, this one's a class A misdeamenor and again you have to evince intent and again that's up to the arresting officer to decide.
In Virginia - I think it was it might have been one of the Carolinas - police arrested a guy for possession of a weapon - again a Leatherman that the guy used for his job. The state in question has laws against possession of dangerous knives (lots of states do btw) and the arresting officer deemed the knife to be of the dangerous variety - a completely subjective and probably not Constitutional standard but that's another story. The judge tossed the case, berated the PD for wasting everyone's time with a frivolous arrest, but still, it cost the poor slob several thousands in lawyer fees.
And those are just a few that come immediately to mind. Moral of the story. You do not know what might land you in trouble.
I doubt that the law says you don't ticket them based on a good attitude.
I'm with your last statement. Write everyone a ticket. If they didn't break the law you shouldn't have stopped them in the first place. Theoretically.
Well I'm not in the US, I'm in Northern Ireland. Nice to see profiling is a worldwide occurrence.
Because of 40 years of IRA and other paramilitary activites here, the law allows car searches under suspicion of terrorism. As you can guess, this legal loophole is abused constantly to search cars for drugs. I've lost count of the number of times I've been stopped and had a full car search, plus breathalyser test. Always driving a clean, well maintained car.
A car full of twenty-something males with long hair, guitars and other music gear in the boot. You really expect anyone to believe we're genuinely under suspicion of paramilitary activity? For contrast, my father drives around 10 times more miles in an average year. He's been doing this for longer than I've been alive and he's never once had his car stopped. Funny enough since I cut my hair, neither have I.
For the record, I have only had one instance in my life where police had grounds to even consider issuing me with any sort of verbal warning, when three of them pulled me off a guy I beat the tar out of in self defence. They pulled me aside, questioned me, I explained the situation and they were able to access CCTV footage to confirm my story totally. Those officers were respectful and polite, the other guy was a known thug they had dealings with multiple times per week. I have a totally clean record, yet the officers searching my car were always considerably less respectful and spoke to me as if I had already been found guilty.
Because of 40 years of IRA and other paramilitary activites here, the law allows car searches under suspicion of terrorism. As you can guess, this legal loophole is abused constantly to search cars for drugs. I've lost count of the number of times I've been stopped and had a full car search, plus breathalyser test. Always driving a clean, well maintained car.
A car full of twenty-something males with long hair, guitars and other music gear in the boot. You really expect anyone to believe we're genuinely under suspicion of paramilitary activity? For contrast, my father drives around 10 times more miles in an average year. He's been doing this for longer than I've been alive and he's never once had his car stopped. Funny enough since I cut my hair, neither have I.
For the record, I have only had one instance in my life where police had grounds to even consider issuing me with any sort of verbal warning, when three of them pulled me off a guy I beat the tar out of in self defence. They pulled me aside, questioned me, I explained the situation and they were able to access CCTV footage to confirm my story totally. Those officers were respectful and polite, the other guy was a known thug they had dealings with multiple times per week. I have a totally clean record, yet the officers searching my car were always considerably less respectful and spoke to me as if I had already been found guilty.
So, this...you ACTUALLY mouthed off to a cop like that, when you were 19 years old and had a car full of music gear, and the cop let you go without so much as a ticket? I like to consider myself a pretty nice guy but I know damn well that if I were in a position of power and some punk kid treated me like that, I'd have arrested him on a trumped-up charge just to make his life difficult. Good thing I'm not a cop.
COP STORY: Was in the passenger seat of my friend's car when he was pulled over. My friend had a glass pipe under my seat that may or may not have been used for marijuana (I honestly don't know, but I could guess - seeing as how my friend had marijuana on his person). I was arrested for paraphernalia. Apparently, in Pennsylvania, if something is within your reach, you can be charged with "constructive possession". My friend even said to the cop, "that is my pipe, please do not arrest my friend" and I was arrested anyway. Of course I beat the charge - hundreds of dollars in lawyers fees and court costs later.
I don't ride in cars with people who carry drug paraphernalia anymore. Learned that one the hard way, eh?
stagebanter said:
Wow. You should be in the movies....
At the time I played guitar, and had my old Lotus guitar in the car. Everything else was left at the rehearsal space. So far it's NOT illegal to carry a musical instrument in a vehicle. You assumed that I was carrying everything else. Since then, I've switched to bass, and have to admit that I get pulled over a lot less
Again, you don't have to tell the cop where your going. Especially when it's a well known cop that loves to harass people. Lawful business is a perfectly acceptable answer, and I fail to see how it's mouthing off. Why should you answer to where you're going? What does that have to do with a light "supposedly" out? There is nothing illegal about driving a car, at any time of the day or night. It's just as bad consenting to an unwarranted search. Sure, I could have got some trumped up charge, but nothing a decent lawyer couldn't get me out of...
I believe I was clear when I said that I lived in a small town. My next post was getting "drawn upon" just for walking next to some railroad tracks when I was younger. Same cop. Obviously, he had some issues with abusing his power.
He had a few dirty cop friends, and they all got their reward later due to...evidence missing (drugs) that they admitted to taking, and reselling. Putting their kids through college...eh?
So, let's connect the dots. Small town cop that likes to abuse his power. Likes to follow people all over, and pull them over for imaginary violations, and likes to harass kids.
I've stated in my post that this wasn't my first time getting pulled over for the same exact thing. I've checked and made repairs (that really didn't need to be made) to my vehicle because I don't like getting pulled over. I verify with the cop that I have a light out...errr...wait...now BOTH out when they're not.
My issue was quit wasting my time and money chasing faults that don't exist. Say I was swerving, or didn't make a complete stop or something. Something remotely believable...
Let's recap.
Telling a cop that you are doing your lawful business, and trying to get info about imaginary lights out in your vehicle is mouthing off? Telling him all the BS that you've had to do because of it is mouthing off? Would it have been because I was younger at the time? If I was 80, would I still have been a punk?
And you're right. Good thing you're not a cop. The last thing we need is another cop abusing their power. Just sayin'.
That's exactly it. I learned this 30 years ago as a Reserve Deputy: if it's after 5:00 PM and you see a car touch a white line or centerline, or have a light out, stop them assuming they're drunk. You will be right more often than you're wrong.
They talk with you long enough to make sure you're OK, then cut you loose.
There's a difference between what you are legally entitled to do and what will get you a bunch of grief. SURE, go ahead and wise off to the cop. Tell him you're going about your legal business. Get all puffed up and righteous. Pull out your constitutional rights. Mouth off all you want. See how long that traffic stop lasts. It could easily run an hour or longer. I bet I could come up with enough equipment problems, safety inspections and license checks to easily fill an hour...all without violating any of your rights.
And guess what - in that small town, you're going to drive that road again. Guess who may just happen to be waiting, and decide that it looks like you have a taillight out? And that it will take another hour to clear that traffic stop? You could become a VERY popular guy with the local constabulary.
Give a cop attitude, and you will QUICKLY find out that you're on the losing end of the proposition. Yes, some cops are nasty; evidently you knew one. Talk to the police chief in your town, or the Mayor, or all of the above. But it's a losing proposition to mouth off or give attitude to a cop.
The four words you need to use to end that traffic stop are "Yes sir" and "No sir". Saying anything else should be done with discretion and judgment.
Yeah, no kidding, right?
Anyways, all I'm saying is if that I'd ever talked to a cop the way you did, I'd definitely be in a world of hurt - probably in cuffs at some point, and even with no charges I'd still have to spend hours jumping through the police hoops and maybe even go to court. That cop apparently had more important things to do than deal with you, which is lucky for you.
Also, to answer your question, yes: being a mouthy wiseass 80-year-old man is way different than being a mouthy wiseass 19-year-old. Although according to YouTube, cops will Taser just about anyone regardless of age if they say something the cop doesn't like.
Pilgrim said:
Wow. Attitude? Mouthing off? Face it, some cops just enjoy abusing their power, and confuse mouthing off, profiling, and not getting "their way" with people stating their rights.
It's funny how some people like to put words in your mouth, and jump to conclusions on the Internet. No one got puffed up and righteous. I simply stated my constitutional right. The ones that LEO's swore to uphold. Good cops should respect that, bad ones get all bent because they're not getting their way, right?
Could the cop have trumped up things? Yep. Could he have delayed my stop? Yep. Could I have gotten a ticket and worked it out in court? Yep. Could that cop have been asked to explain all the stops he's made, and no tickets ever being issued? Yep.
Do I act like this "mouthing off" you speak of when I get pulled over? Depends on the cop. If I'm approached with respect, I give it back. I have no issues being respectful, or being cooperative. I used to work with with LEO's at the city, county, and state levels. Now it's only the state level. In fact, it was a state cop that told me to use the lawful business line. Stay calm, stay cool, and there you go. Most county, state cops, and conservation officers around here are good. City cops...all bets are off. Pity.
Cops aren't 100% right. You and I both know this. However, it's silly to expect that I'm going to play along when I was clearly being harassed, at least twice in this instance, by an obviously dirty cop.
No one should have to explain where they've been during a stop. What does it matter for a "light out"? If I've committed a violation, write the ticket and let the court decide. That is, if the cop shows up.
Now, before the flame wars begin, not all cops are dirty. I've worked with, and been pulled over by mostly good ones. There were a few here and there over the course of my life that liked to make things difficult. For that, there are lawyers, judges, and even other good cops to help you out. Cops are not above the law.
And the good news is this cop won't be stopping anyone again. He gave up the privilege to serve and protect when he stole evidence.
it's what happens when you abuse your power. Eventually, you WILL get caught.As for the "you'll become a marked man with the cops" comment, probably. But it is what it is. Everybody has to answer to somebody above them. Things could become difficult for the cops too.
So there ya go. When I'm in your jurisdiction, pull me over and say I'm weaving. Everyone weaves. At least that's believe able. Imaginary mechanical issues, especially those that cost money to investigate, are not cool, and piss off the guy that has to become popular with local mechanics. Dig?
