Country and Western

[BBQisgood]

Ok.

Country and Western is the name of a record bin people decided we needed at the record store.

“Western” music is not “country” music, per se, and Bluegrass is its own idiom, associated with but separate from “country”, Blues, Jazz, and other idioms from the late 1800s through the early 20th century.

“Celtic” music is not one thing. It comprises lots of different traditions.

There’s an interesting lecture series where Wynton Marsalis comments on why Irish jigs were so attractive to African American musicians who were familiar with West African 6/8 polyrhythms. He remarks on how those initial rhythms melded into the shuffle we’re all familiar with, and gives a nod to how Irish music was easily appreciated and adapted.

It’s easy to hear how the Americanized rhythmic sensibility made its way back to Europe’s folk players in the 20th century.

Everything melted together and it’s beautiful in my opinion. It works because there was much in common to begin with, but the richness comes from the diversity.

So much of both “country” and “western” (especially Western Swing) is African. It’s the imitation and evolution of those African and African American musicians who are responsible for the changes to the European folk tradition.

 

[ElectroVibe]

I mentioned southern rock earlier, but I think it also evolved into country rock like the (later) Byrds and eventually the Eagles.

 

[Outbush]

There was a time, during the earliest settlement in this country especially in the southeast, where it was go Celtic or go home.

Now I'm getting confused. Is that the football team or the music?

 

[BBQisgood]

One thing I don’t appreciate about many of the more generic labels we give to music is that they are byproducts of the need to organize the material for commercial sale.

“Country and Western” is nonspecific. So is “Celtic Music”. Even worse is the label “World Music”. Don’t get me wrong, I like listening to both of those things. However, we need to move beyond those labels and get more specific if we are to learn.

I listened to an interview with Zakir Hussein. His early East-meets-West collaborations were basically some of the first, if not the first, music to be put in the “World Music” bin. It’s great that we could hear it, but We know we can be more specific and respectful.

That fiddler in the Marsalis video is a man named Mark O’Connor. He is arguably the finest Texas/contest-style fiddler ever to play the instrument.

Contest-style/Texas-style fiddling is something you will find in the “Country and Western” bin, but is the epitome of “Western Swing” and is very, very, very different from country fiddling.

Texas-style fiddling is quite close to Jazz. It took old-time, country melodies and injected high-intensity rhythmic sense that is straight out of rural and urban African American tradition from the early 20th century. (Read: the Blues) Have a listen to this (an atypical example in that it uses drums):

 

[whero]

By the way, everyone in this thread probably already knows, but just in case: KELL-tick is the adjective used to refer to the culture; CELL-ticks is the Boston basketball team.

...and one of Glasgow's four professional football teams.

 

[Outbush]

Seriously now:

Can I just throw this into the mix about now; the central hyporthesis of the documentary "Rumble: The Indians Who Rocked the World".

Also, very, very few of the most talented of us are talented enough in the ways necessary to create new genres of music. And even including those people who are all of us are ultimately influenced by, and consequently appropriate, little bits and pieces from the genres we like and...

 

[BBQisgood]

And, for contrast, here’s “old time country” fiddling.



The fiddler, Tatiana Hargreaves, is a master. The banjo player, Bruce Molsky, is The modern flame keeper of the old time style. He is the fiddle teacher, along with Darol Anger, of Brittany Haas, whom many consider to be the finest old-time fiddle player alive today.

Why all the fiddle references? Because the music OP asked about is fundamentally dance music, and dance music music in this context is linked inextricably to the fiddle.

edit: also— the banjo is an African American instrument through and through, based upon its West-African mother instruments.

 

[BBQisgood]

And here’s modern country fiddling at its finest:




Stuart Duncan’s playing is the standard by which others are judged.

Personally I dislike saying something or someone is “the best”, but if you made me choose, it would be Mr. Duncan.

 

[higain617]

Bostonians pronounce a lot of things incorrectly.

No, we don't. You're just speaking the wrong type of English.

 

[BBQisgood]

Last post tonight: many people don’t know this, but the 4- string banjo, which was the tenor rhythm instrument of early Jazz, was heard and loved by Irish immigrants to America. It was supplanted by the guitar with the advent of amplification. But, it lived on.

Those Irish folks adapted it and now we call one version the Irish tenor banjo. It’s tuned in fifths. It rode the wave of cultural interchange back across the Atlantic and had a profound effect on the Irish music scene, and is now just as “Irish” as the harp, the pipes, and the whistle.

The most famous player was Barney McKenna. I like listening to his student and friend, Gerry O’Connor.

 

[JW56789]

No.

 

[cnltb]

Do you believe country music is the true Celtic music of the modern world?

Who are your favorite artists?

No.
Celtic music is the true Celti music of the modern world.
Country music is country music. Influenced by but by no means the same as Celtic music.

 

[mongo2]

From Britannica.com...

"Ultimately, country music’s roots lie in the ballads, folk songs, and popular songs of the English, Scots, and Irish settlers of the Appalachians and other parts of the South."

Scotland and Ireland are Celtic countries so country music does have a connection to those cultures but Celtic music is still "the true Celtic music of the modern world."

 

[Durham52]

What the.....? I don't know where the OP is talking about when he says that country music is now more popular than Celtic music. (though traditional folk music might be a better descriptor for the type of music he seems to think has been replaced?) I'm guessing he must mean in America, because although country music is quite popular in the UK and parts of Europe, I think there's still a strong attachment to the traditional music and its derivations.

I'll admit, I might have missed a sudden upheaval, as I now live in Australia, but I was born and used to live up in "the Borders" where Scotland and England meet, my family lines are Andersons and Kennedys, so Scottish/Nordic. Up where I came from there wasn't much evidence of American country music replacing traditional/Celtic music and no one was discussing down the pub that Country was the new Celtic.(!)

Seems like no one (at least on TB) seems to think it is either, though I doubt many Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, or Bretton, would give a flying what's it, if they did.

 

[jdh3000]

When I saw the post, I thought of this scene.

It's my favorite line to use when someone asks what kind music do y'all play... lol!

 

[jdh3000]

Modern country music is rock music sung with an accent. The world doesn’t need another song about pickup trucks, tight jeans and beer.

It's wannabe "rock"... I find the music lacking depth compared to rock, and the lyrics are far from where country came from, because one shouldn't have to try to prove their music is country singing about tailgates, pickups, dirt roads, daisy duke shorts and mud on their boots, when they could sing "shook me all night long" to a slow shuffle with a steel guitar in the background and it'd still be more country than what's heard today.

It's just my opinion from being raised with it all my life and seeing it become whatever it is.

I like rock and I like real country, the kind with a soul in it, a combination of lyrics and music that can tear your heart out at the right moment. People who were steeped in it don't understand, and that's what we have churning out neo cookie cutter songs. But someone's been sold on it, conditioned to it, and that's where the money is for someone. If they could sell the sound of a screen door slamming, they would.

I know music evolves, but some of it devolves...

 

[5StringBlues]

 

[Nev375]

Did someone get an early start on St. Patricks day?

 

[sxaxsx]

It's best to just enjoy music without the labels. Whatever you think is "traditional" or of a certain genre, if you just go back a step further you realize there is more to it.
It's like food. You could spend time arguing that New York style pizza isn't Italian food and that Pizza Margherita is closer to the Italian origin. But then tomatoes didn't become part of Italian cuisine until the late 17th century. If you go back far enough none of us would recognize Italian food or Celtic music or anything else.

 

[badinage]

I'm sure someone will straighten me out on this, but my suspicion is that the "Celtic" music one sees on PBS TV Specials bears little resemblance to what was being played by the folks who brought their music traditions to Appalachia to seed the origins of American Country music, but is rather now it's own distinct sub-genre. Like Bluegrass, a "new music pretending to be old" as some famous grasser (Monroe himself?) once said.

Market-forces driven by a paying audience have re-shaped entire genres more than many perhaps realize. An example would be Don Helms (Hank Williams senior's steel player then recording-industry executive and producer) single-handedly changing the trajectory of American Country Music from the acoustic string-band sound to the electrified and twangy version we think of today.