Countryman Type 85 DI Box

[NKBassman]

@sunbeast @bassboysam, I don't disagree.

There are tradeoffs between micing a cab and using a DI, obviously. If you go with mics you have an almost infinite variety of different mics to choose from, and even more variety if you play with placement. I'm sure if one worked at it, it wouldn't be difficult to find a superior tone using a mic VS a speaker level DI.

But I personally prefer the consistency of the DI option, and the isolation (no bleed from other sources). It may not always sound as good as a mic, but it will sound the same night after night, and setup is easy with no second guessing mic placement, etc. Also, one less mic stand on stage means less clutter, and no accidentally bumping the mic stand causing the stripped-to-hell mic clip to drop the mic to the stage. And (hopefully) fewer arguments with soundguys over what signal to use.

It's all a balancing act, which depends on what your ultimate goals are. OP came in asking about a speaker level DI option to use with with OD and fuzz tones, so that's what I gave him.

 

[sunbeast]

I've tried the JDI and JDX and heard the palmer. in my opinion they all sound like bass being played through a guitar cab. very boxy sounding with no real bottom.

you're better off getting a good mic since you're going to have to have a cab anyway. the AKG P2 is awesome for $99 it will sound better than any speaker DI and closer to your stage tone.

In my experience with live engineers, either they'll immediately plug into the DI built in to my head or will have a stage DI already set up to go straight from my pedalboard. The Palmer direct from either my pedalboard or used as a speaker-level DI is definitely superior to either of the options I am generally given.

I've had good luck convincing a sound-guy to deal with my own DI most times (or sneaking it in), but even that's been contentious enough at times that I'd be wary trying to assert a mic on some of these guys. Couldn't hurt having the option, but in the places that don't already mic I might also be wary of how they treat an EQ'ed mic situation. I find my biggest complaint from live bass tone is generally too much subs from the PA and not too much clank, as most engineers in small to mid-sized venues are using the bass channel on the PA as a low-pass to fill in the stage sound and not as a full signal. In a smaller venue where they are actually relying on the PA for full bass representation usually it means I can't play my tube-amp loud enough to really juice it anyway so a pedalboard-level DI with highs cut works fine. In bigger venues here I find that micing bass amps generally seems more normal, so having a nice mic available could be useful!

 

[sunbeast]

@sunbeast @bassboysam, I don't disagree.

There are tradeoffs between micing a cab and using a DI, obviously. If you go with mics you have an almost infinite variety of different mics to choose from, and even more variety if you play with placement. I'm sure if one worked at it, it wouldn't be difficult to find a superior tone using a mic VS a speaker level DI.

But I personally prefer the consistency of the DI option, and the isolation (no bleed from other sources). It may not always sound as good as a mic, but it will sound the same night after night, and setup is easy with no second guessing mic placement, etc. Also, one less mic stand on stage means less clutter, and no accidentally bumping the mic stand causing the stripped-to-hell mic clip to drop the mic to the stage. And (hopefully) fewer arguments with soundguys over what signal to use.

It's all a balancing act, which depends on what your ultimate goals are. OP came in asking about a speaker level DI option to use with with OD and fuzz tones, so that's what I gave him.

I completely agree with you, and I am a Palmer PDI-09 user (at the places we tend to play usually straight off my pedalboard). I just wanted him to get a good representation of the limitations of DI tone to capture the essence of a rig regardless of speaker simulation!

 

[Bob_Ross]

You'd think that someone would've built a good DI for dirty bass by now....

Boy, talk about a "niche product"... I would bet the intersection set of All Bassists Who Require A DI For PA Support and All PAs Being Used To Reinforce Bass Guitar In The House That Are Not Staffed By A (Semi-)Qualified Operator is pretty small. And then weed out all the bassists from that intersection set who don't use fuzz...is anybody left?

iow, that's a really specialized product you're describing. I'm not at all surprised it doesn't exist commercially.

 

[NKBassman]

Extremely small niches have never stopped anyone in the pedal-building world before.

If you build it, they will come.

 

[sunbeast]

Boy, talk about a "niche product"... I would bet the intersection set of All Bassists Who Require A DI For PA Support and All PAs Being Used To Reinforce Bass Guitar In The House That Are Not Staffed By A (Semi-)Qualified Operator is pretty small. And then weed out all the bassists from that intersection set who don't use fuzz...is anybody left?

iow, that's a really specialized product you're describing. I'm not at all surprised it doesn't exist commercially.

Considering the number of bass-specific preamp/DIs available these days and that many have dirt built in, I actually am surprised more speaker-sim products don't offer bass-friendly voicings yet. I hear you about generally just trusting sound engineers, but I am fortunate to live in LA where a lot of the better ones have ended up!

 

[NKBassman]

At the end of the day, whether you mic or DI using any given option under the sun, you're still at the mercy of the sound tech to not butcher it all to hell at the board.

And maybe he will, and maybe he'll need to, given the specifics of the room, or limitations of the system he's working with. Best to try and work together to achieve a workable goal. Most of the time it may not be "perfect", but that doesn't mean it won't be good.

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

If someone would make a Rupert Neve DI close with a high pass at ~60Hz and a low pass at 4KHz, I'd be set for life.


OP, the JDI is a pretty decent place to start. It may be just what you need.

 

[sunbeast]

I'm curious as to why there are so many guitar-cab speaker sims out there- in all my years of playing live music I struggle to remember a single time I've seen an electric guitar rig DI'ed. I've used the Palmer successfully to DI a synth rig, but guitar amps are always miced often when it isn't even necessary!

 

[gregmon79]

I've tried the JDI and JDX and heard the palmer. in my opinion they all sound like bass being played through a guitar cab. very boxy sounding with no real bottom.

you're better off getting a good mic since you're going to have to have a cab anyway. the AKG P2 is awesome for $99 it will sound better than any speaker DI and closer to your stage tone.

The problem is though, and I have thought about/actually wanted to go this way from the start, sound guys at venues either will fight me or flat out refuse to mic my cab most times. And I'm for standing up for my sound, but I'm not sure it's worth the frustration of playing a show where the guy at the board has all the power and is now peeved at me becasue I straight told him I'm mic'ing my cab and that's that. IME it's just been easier and smoother to use a DI. Live anyway.

With all that said, I still would like a mic. Maybe I'll just get both when I can. Thank you much for that mic recommendation. I will look into that mic further.

 

[NKBassman]

I'm curious as to why there are so many guitar-cab speaker sims out there- in all my years of playing live music I struggle to remember a single time I've seen an electric guitar rig DI'ed. I've used the Palmer successfully to DI a synth rig, but guitar amps are always miced often when it isn't even necessary!

Your average guitar player isn't typically known to be amongst the most forward-thinking musicians in the world.

I think the speaker sim crowd is growing though, especially for the bigger touring acts. My soundguy buddies text me pictures from back stage sometimes, and I'm seeing lots of AxeFX units and Torpedo cab sims on the mid- to pro-level touring rigs these days.

Same for session guys who do lots of subbing, or bands doing fly-in gigs where you don't always know what you're going to get when you arrive. Just stuff a JDX/Palmer in your bag and get a consistent tone to the PA every. single. time. no matter what crusty old mics are in the milk crate behind the stage.

 

[micguy]

I have a lo pass filter on my pedalboard - a single pole rolloff at about 7 kz seems to tame that bit of fizz on diret, and that little bit of clinky stuff when I play clean. It's just a resistor and capacitor in a 1590 size box. It kinda depnds on what impedance is feeding it, so you need to know that before picking values, and if the things before or after it, are true bypass, you might get shifting results. Anyway seems to work just like I need it to. It's in the grey box in this picture:

 

[sunbeast]

Your average guitar player isn't typically known to be amongst the most forward-thinking musicians in the world.

I think the speaker sim crowd is growing though, especially for the bigger touring acts. My soundguy buddies text me pictures from back stage sometimes, and I'm seeing lots of AxeFX units and Torpedo cab sims on the mid- to pro-level touring rigs these days.

Same for session guys who do lots of subbing, or bands doing fly-in gigs where you don't always know what you're going to get when you arrive. Just stuff a JDX in your bag and get a consistent tone to the PA every. single. time. no matter what crusty old mics are in the milk crate behind the stage.

Yeah the digital modeling stuff is definitely taking off, but the simple DI with built-in cab-sim I've never seen used in a guitar rig!

 

[gregmon79]

Boy, talk about a "niche product"... I would bet the intersection set of All Bassists Who Require A DI For PA Support and All PAs Being Used To Reinforce Bass Guitar In The House That Are Not Staffed By A (Semi-)Qualified Operator is pretty small. And then weed out all the bassists from that intersection set who don't use fuzz...is anybody left?

iow, that's a really specialized product you're describing. I'm not at all surprised it doesn't exist commercially.

So sorry for sounding like a snobbish jerk there buddy.

In actuality, nowadays, it's a pretty common theme amongst bassist here on TB and in the real world. Well, in my area anyway. I've talked to quite a few bassists I've played with about this. I'll admit, most don't really know or care. But the guys that do, really do. Like me. And there are quite a few companies out there who do actually cater to niche markets. So yes, it is surprising to me that no one has done it yet. Thanks for your input anyway.

 

[gregmon79]

I'm curious as to why there are so many guitar-cab speaker sims out there- in all my years of playing live music I struggle to remember a single time I've seen an electric guitar rig DI'ed. I've used the Palmer successfully to DI a synth rig, but guitar amps are always miced often when it isn't even necessary!

Amen brother. In fact I can't remember one time a sound guy told my guitarist to plug into a DI box. It's always mic'd cab.

 

[gregmon79]

I think I'll get a JDI and that AKG mic in the end. Carry both in my bag and bust out the DI normally. I'll ask the sound guy what he'd prefer too, because I know he knows the venue better than I (most times), and see how it goes from there. @NKBassman brings up a lot of good points. As do you other guys. I think the JDI is the way to go for me.

You guys rock butts! Thanks so much for all your inputs and experiences. This is great stuff.

 

[NKBassman]

Yeah the digital modeling stuff is definitely taking off, but the simple DI with built-in cab-sim I've never seen used in a guitar rig!

True enough. Very rare. Probably because the guys who are at the level of "needing" a guitar DI solution can usually afford to buy and use whatever they want, and would go with a more flexible solution (ie digital modeling). Lets face it, the "lowly" SM-57 is going to work for the guitar in most situations.

I know of one touring band from Toronto where the guitar player uses a JDX, but that's about the only one I've seen in real life (besides mine ).

 

[bassboysam]

I've been with this current band for 8 years. when we have a show I introduce myself to whomever is running the sound. I explain that I use effects and distortion and feedback and would prefer to use a mic and that I brought one that they can use. I also offer to let them use the mic for all the bands playing that night if it makes it easier. I have never been denied my request.


I really dont know where you guys live and what is in the water that makes your sound guys so hard to work with. All the towns and cities we have played the sound guys have been super supportive and willing to work with us.


having said that, assuming a mic is "allowed" I don't think it is as inconsistent as to get a good sound as many say. mic position makes a difference, but in loud live situation, if the mic is off by a few inches or degrees no one can tell the difference. At the end of the day you're still at the mercy of the guy behind the board regardless of mic or DI. With my cabs i actually have a little "X" drawn on the grill where i like the mic. makes it easy. if i'm using a backline cab I jut point the mic at the center of the speaker and be done with it. live sound is overrated anyway. no one will notice and no one really cares in the rock/metal/punk scenes. it's just a wall of distortion anyway.

 

[Bob_Ross]

In actuality, nowadays, it's a pretty common theme amongst bassist here on TB and in the real world. Well, in my area anyway. I've talked to quite a few bassists I've played with about this. I'll admit, most don't really know or care.

So iow, you agree with me. You're welcome.

 

[sunbeast]

having said that, assuming a mic is "allowed" I don't think it is as inconsistent as to get a good sound as many say. mic position makes a difference, but in loud live situation, if the mic is off by a few inches or degrees no one can tell the difference. At the end of the day you're still at the mercy of the guy behind the board regardless of mic or DI. With my cabs i actually have a little "X" drawn on the grill where i like the mic. makes it easy. if i'm using a backline cab I jut point the mic at the center of the speaker and be done with it. live sound is overrated anyway. no one will notice and no one really cares in the rock/metal/punk scenes. it's just a wall of distortion anyway.

This is the key really- I've backlined my rig at plenty of shows where it was miced and the sound could still be all over the place in the audience vs how I heard it on stage or directly in front of the stage. The true-believers will be right in front of the band where the amps are doing most of the work, and its the people out in the back that are just hearing your rumbling subs if you got em (which is why I've been using some form of HPF in my rig for years). My band is a potential nightmare as it is for a typical rock n roll engineer so I take it upon myself to be as little as a burden as possible with my rig- we have two guitarists, drummer, synth amp, Hammond organ with Leslie cab, my bass, then three vocal mics! If we were a power trio I might be more inclined to try to assert a mic into my rig if I thought the situation might benefit from it (usually a bigger room where the PA actually was doing much of the bass work, which are most often the places locally that already mic my rig).