CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[WI Short Scaler]

We're small. 3pc, bass/guitar/cajon and all 3 sing. Our PA is more than two "sticks" and fancy lights, but no sense explaining that. All of our equipment is paid for in full and this is our hobby.

For many of the small places we play we get $350 a night. Whoever drives the farthest gets some extra for time/gas. Some places that hold more people it's $450. And if it's a wedding or NYE's eve we've negotiated higher rates.

To the OP, worry about your band and let the rest of us worry about ours. My primary occupation pays the bills and gig $$ buys gig toys. $100 per gig for me to play some tunes and have fun is a good deal.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

As we don't have a "bands union", there will just be another band to come in and scoop up the $300 gig you just turned down. Sure, if ALL bands did it, we could drive up our rates. But if not all do it, we just take ourselves out of the game.

Well, there is a musician's union, you know.
Home - American Federation of Musicians
When I was working out of Nashville doing the "Holiday Inn" circuit, you had to join to get to play, but in the day, they were more upscale gigs. Now, it seems it is mostly sleazy dive bars.

 

[Oddly]

As we don't have a "bands union"...

I'm sure the folks in AFM Local 126 would disagree...

Actually, I am curious.
Reading about the Wrecking Crew, for example, it seems the Musicians Union was a big deal in those days...is that no longer the case?
If not, why not?
Has it fallen into disrepute, or does it charge silly money and do nothing?

Seems the only way to get bands earning a decent wage would be to have every musician out there unionised, and refuse to pay for less than the agreed rate.

Probably completely unrealistic, I know...


Note I've never been in a Musicians union myself...Ireland has one, but I get the impression it's very small, and members are mainly concert orchestra folks or some of the very few musicians who work for national radio/tv stations, where I believe if you're not in the union, you won't get the job.

 

[Jaycephas]

I just paid a DJ over $2K to do my daughter's wedding. I initially lost my mind over that cost, but he was a great guy and coordinated all the dances, introductions, speeches, and provided a photo booth. My band has played weddings, but we do not provide those services. Too many things to go wrong and make someone's mother very angry.

My band (which was not an option for the wedding) plays 6-8 times per year, and we typically get $600 per gig, private or otherwise. On the rare occasion, where our people show up big time, we get a tip from the venue. At this point in my life, I play because I like to gig with my bandmates and friends. The money is just an extra that makes it a little sweeter.

So I say for all the DJs, small bands, etc that are hustling and working hard to do this for a living, more power to you. And for the rest of us, enjoy getting to gig!

 

[flojob]

Stop trying to make a living from bar gigs. Problem solved, with a solution that was realized 30 years ago, for most folks.

 

[And I]

Well, there is a musician's union, you know.
Home - American Federation of Musicians
When I was working out of Nashville doing the "Holiday Inn" circuit, you had to join to get to play, but in the day, they were more upscale gigs. Now, it seems it is mostly sleazy dive bars.

Yes, there is a musician's union, of that I'm well aware. I was talking about a band's union, as that would be the only way for collective bargaining between all bands and all clubs like the OP is suggesting. Perhaps I could have just said it wasn't a realistic suggestion.

 

[StayLow]

Pendulums swing and history repeats.

Wives giving it up for free never put whores out of business. Your band playing for a $10 cover never cut into Nickelback or Cardi B's sales if they're in town the same night. Porsche doesn't worry about Ford, and you don't hang $5 posters from Wal-Mart on the walls of a mansion. The local high-school football team doesn't cost the SuperBowl any ad revenues, and McDonald's doesn't worry restaurants with 5-star Michelin ratings.

Do you hire the cheapest / amateur defense attorney, or why not just look up some legal stuff online and represent yourself? How will we feed all the starving lawyers?!?

Let people charge what they want, as they will.

Offer a better product at a higher price, or stay home. With the debt implosion that's begun, what bar gigs pay will be the least of amateur musicians' worries.

 

[City]

It's the adage that people continually say on here. Bring a show (lights/quality sound) and entertain the people. Don't stand there under one old 64 PAR in yellow and look at your lyrics on a music stand. Be energetic, be professional, bring the show and you will get more. Money never travels by accident.

 

[Torrente Cro]

Wives giving it up for free never put whores out of business.

 

[fhm555]

Here’s the hard truth, if your band is worth a couple grand you can get a couple grand.
If your band is worth a hundred fifty, you can get a hundred fifty.
Money is relative to quality of the band. If you are good and work a lot, the money will come. If you are good and work a few times a year you might get the door, if you don’t have to pay to play.
If you suck you will get exposure no matter how often you work.
There are exceptions, but a tight band that does not have to consult every member before taking a job will rise on the pay scale.

 

[jaco944]

I’m a wedding DJ and play in 3 bands. In my area the DJ business is far more lucrative than all 3bands. For me it’s a happy balance as I’m at least involved with the music if not always playing the notes. My favorite DJ gigs and most stressful are the ones where I have to crack the musical code to fill a dead empty dance floor.

 

[Greyvagabond]

But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

This is true. This is a bad thing for you.

That's too bad. Work harder, be better, or be more flexible. I don't think it fair to tell a bunch of people who can make money playing music that they should not make money playing music so that you can make more money playing music. That's not how it works!

 

[StayLow]

And remember, DJ's didn't "take" our gigs because they were cheaper - the ones I know often cost much more - they earned the gigs often by being better.

Songs people want to hear, at easily controlled volume, no endless wanking, no dumb stuff on the mic, and sadly often better "performance". Quick easy setups with no feedbacking or awkward lulls. And did I mention volume?

Also generally better promoters and self-promoters. And volume.

The ones I know were former pro or semi-pro musicians that saw opportunity to be onstage without the endless band drama and dysfunction. Kudos and credit where due.

Trends change. What's old becomes new again. That's all part of the ups & downs. However Pro, well-dressed, responsible bands with a current setlist and sane volume lost few if any gigs to so-so DJ's.

 

[rocu]

$300 would be good money for a brewery/coffeehouse gig in my neck of the woods. I'm not sure what bars are paying these days as I have no interest in doing those.

 

[40Hz]

You will never stop newer or less in demand bands from playing the bar sce

This.

Market prices are affected by supply and demand. So you have an oversupply issue for openers.

Second problem is any profession or artistic field that experiences a large influx of amateurs rapidly loses its standing in the eyes of the market. When everybody’s doing it, or knows someone who’s doing it, the public’s perception of value goes right out the window. Scarcity almost always increases the public’s perception of value and the prices it’s willing to pay. And when I walk into a place with three bands on the marquee, one which looks and plays fairly professionally bracketed between bands with members who are about 14 years old - and then see the soccer mom & dad entourage they brought along to meet their pay-to-play ticket quota - and I walk right back out the door.

That’s bad enough. But here’s the thing…you also get a lot of people (even here) who proclaim their band’s real job is to help sell drinks. Period. Or they’re just doing it for yucks and grins, and an excuse for night out. Say you don’t agree with that and they tell you to get over yourself. That’s sort of attitude that goes a long way toward taking the shine off being a musician or habing a band.

The local venues don’t care, and the potential live audiences don’t care. And why should they? It’s abundantly clear far too many musicians and bands don’t care worth a damn either. And what we tend to get offered as pay these days reflects that.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

Yikes. I don't know what to say. I was brought up to not talk about money, but y'all are driving me nuts with this grouse fest. I've been playing with Redhead for almost four years. We are a bar band, nothing more, nothing less. Singer, guitarist, bassist, drummer, sound guy. We don't do anything for less than $700, and usually it's $800. We are not doing anything that hasn't been done by someone before us. We play the hits. The same venues that pay us that kind of money will also pay other bands $300. What is our secret? We draw. If you can demonstrate that you can make money for a club off drink sales/cover charges, then you can be rewarded for doing that. What else? We're loud, but we're never too loud. Three of us are capable of lead vocals, and we do a lot of three part harmony. And while we all consider ourselves musicians, we also consider ourselves to be entertainers. And, frankly, we've had a lot of dumb luck: People who see us in clubs have been known to hire us for municipal events ("Downtown After 5"), weddings, private parties and what have you. And, I suppose, we are "professional." We come into a joint, we're all smiles. If we have reasons to bitch about a gig, we do it the next day, you know?

And our BL has a great business head. I guess that's our special sauce. She likes to work, and she likes to make money. The rest of us feel the same way. No, we will never make a living at it, but lets just say I don't go to the ATM very often these days.

And one story: A guy from another band helped get us an introduction to a club. Our BL returned the favor by booking his band in another venue for $600. This guy actually went to the club owner and said "Oh, we'll take $300." His explanation to us was that he knew his band couldn't put on the same kind of show we do. Now maybe that kind of humility is admirable, but I wanted to strangle him. For a long time.

Respect yourselves! (And if you don't believe me, come out and see us some time.)

 

[mrcbass]

Our mediocre bar band is able to get $300-$450 for three sets. That's the market here. Obviously we're not doing this for money (much less than minimum wage when travel and load in/out are factored in). We can ask for more all we want, but frankly, we've played a couple gigs that I'm sure weren't busy enough to have covered even the $300 level pay - so good luck with that.

Never been in the musicians union (was in a construction union for a couple years), but unions in general wind up costing customer more money and I couldn't imagine these dive bars going union. Aside from hoisting workers wages, they need their cut as well - they're just another HUGE mouth to feed. Sure they'll protect all you hotshots from us dad bands; they'll also protect the patrons from our live music. The bars we play, couldn't afford union wages.

 

[Chuck King]

After having read bands-vs.-DJs threads on this and other forums for over ten years, I find this amusing---it's been a constant source of comment and heartburn that DJs often get paid more for one person playing recorded music than a band. But I've often felt that for the most part bands and DJs are only sort of competing, and in certain very specific situations. That may include weddings, but, for at least a generation now people have grown up dancing to recorded music as the default normal situation, even aside from the existence of EDM and similar genres that never involved live people playing instruments in the first place. It's been most of my adult life since "I want to go out dancing" and "I want to go where a band is playing" meant the same thing. So I wonder where the DJ in the OP is playing, that it's even possible for a hack band to take a gig from a DJ.

This may sound bad, but as an older guy it's something I'm sensitive to: I wonder if the DJ in the OP's issue is not that bands (as a thing) are out-competing DJs (as a thing), but rather that a 60-whatever year old guy who's been in the biz for 40 years might not be as marketable as he used to be, assuming he's not of touch with the youngsters, which is a definite danger. Image counts---I would be surprised if many young people would be excited about the prospect of going where somebody from their grandparents' demographic is spinning, even if he does it well.

 

[Greyvagabond]

Do you hire the cheapest / amateur defense attorney, or why not just look up some legal stuff online and represent yourself? How will we feed all the starving lawyers?!?

As an attorney, I can not stress enough how bad an idea this is! Especially if you are involved in a criminal case! As the old saying goes, "the man who represents himself has a fool for a client."

To put it in a way most of us would understand, it's like mixing your own record!

 

[40Hz]

I will take whatever gig I want and couldn't care less about what somebody else thinks I should be making.

^And there you have it folks.

This is the reality of what you’re up against trying to change the current state of affairs.