CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[Wesley R]

Way back in 1982 or some such, the best gig we could get was an orchestrated, whorehouse, boxing ring where the beer and the blood flowed and much fun was to be had. We made the equivalent of whale poop which sinks to the ocean floor. A little bit later we were better and got paid more, not enough in my mind, but what we could get. We changed venues and received a measurable raise. By that time we were pretty tight, reasonably skilled and to quote my family "Sounded like a real band". We had a hunger for more, so we did over priced weddings and received more money that any band in the area was worth.

In 1966 and such, playing your local Junior High School or Middle School was great fun, an tremendous place to get it together and it paid very little. Then with time and experience bands moved up to bars, armories, High Schools, Colleges, etc.

IMHO opinion there is room for a vast variety of skill sets, pay ranges and the like. Not everyone is going to be a 100% full time pro and knock down six figures. Go to a music store that has lessons. Many of the teachers are highly trained and skilled, and in several different bands, giving lessons, working as a salesman.

Someone mentioned a Band Union. In 1974 our local had the price set at $37.50 for four hours (including breaks) per individual, minimum wage was $1.80/hr.

 

[two fingers]

And, what would THAT price be, roughly?

Around here, $300 for a club, $500-600 for a "cheap" private party, and upward of $1500 or more for a "swanky" event.

Bands should be getting at least double that in every category. I wouldn't do a wedding for a dime under three grand, and even that is low. I won't do a bar gig for less than $850, and I'm pretty much a hobbyist these days. For a 5 peice band, that's $100 for each member, $100 for whomever booked the gig (be it a band member or not), $150 for a sound guy and fifty bucks that gets everyone $10 more if we don't have any small expenses. We all own parts of the PA. For instance, I currently provide lights. Female singer owns PA tops and stands, etc.

We are about to do our third gig. We get $900 at one club. We get a guarentee of $850 plus $1 for every person who comes in the door (paid or not) at the other.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Yes, there is a musician's union, of that I'm well aware. I was talking about a band's union, as that would be the only way for collective bargaining between all bands and all clubs like the OP is suggesting. Perhaps I could have just said it wasn't a realistic suggestion.

Well, a band does not negotiate. The negotiation is between the club owner and whomever is booking the band. That would be either a booking agent or the band leader.

 

[Chrisk-K]

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Never in history did work the above nonsense argument.

 

[D-Smith]

I'm totally onboard with the OP. Since everyone seems cool with his original idea, I would like to propose we extend this beyond musicians to include luthiers. I would appreciate it from this point forward if all y'all (including the OP) would put down the screwdrivers, soldering irons, wrenches and stop working on your own instruments. Stop putting together parts basses and don't even think about building your own from scratch. Every time you adjust your own string height or the relief in your neck you are taking food off my table. Every time you offer to set up a friends instrument for a six of good IPAs you are hurting the market for the rest of us luthiers.*

Cool, now that we got that figured out let's work on world peace.
*for the sarcasm impaired, that was a joke.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I'm sure the folks in AFM Local 126 would disagree...

Actually, I am curious.
Reading about the Wrecking Crew, for example, it seems the Musicians Union was a big deal in those days...is that no longer the case?
If not, why not?
Has it fallen into disrepute, or does it charge silly money and do nothing?

Seems the only way to get bands earning a decent wage would be to have every musician out there unionised, and refuse to pay for less than the agreed rate.

Probably completely unrealistic, I know...


Note I've never been in a Musicians union myself...Ireland has one, but I get the impression it's very small, and members are mainly concert orchestra folks or some of the very few musicians who work for national radio/tv stations, where I believe if you're not in the union, you won't get the job.

When I was working union gigs, the union did help once. They didn't have to do anything because the manager knew if he didn't honor the contract, he wouldn't get any more union bands.
We showed up for a week long gig and found he had double booked. We got our pay, our rooms, and meals and drinks as if we were playing. It is the only "paid vacation" I've ever had in music.

 

[mrcbass]

Around here, $300 for a club, $500-600 for a "cheap" private party, and upward of $1500 or more for a "swanky" event.

Bands should be getting at least double that in every category. I wouldn't do a wedding for a dime under three grand, and even that is low. I won't do a bar gig for less than $850, and I'm pretty much a hobbyist these days. For a 5 peice band, that's $100 for each member, $100 for whomever booked the gig (be it a band member or not), $150 for a sound guy and fifty bucks that gets everyone $10 more if we don't have any small expenses. We all own parts of the PA. For instance, I currently provide lights. Female singer owns PA tops and stands, etc.

We are about to do our third gig. We get $900 at one club. We get a guarentee of $850 plus $1 for every person who comes in the door (paid or not) at the other.

Good for you guys. I'm sure there are venues in my market that pay more then what we get - we're just not good enough to even think about reaching for them (and I seriously doubt we ever will be based on my first real peak at our rehearsals). We get by. We play about 50% of our gig pretty tightly and the other half is always a crapshoot. can't get the better gigs at that level of performance - but we're not taking money out of any "real" bands' pockets.

 

[FunkHead]

^And there you have it folks.

This is the reality of what you’re up against trying to change the current state of affairs.

True. But that doesn't mean that my own personal goals are the same as anyone else's.

To be clear: I want to make more and more money each gig. I also want every show to be better than my last.

It's not easy otherwise everybody would be doing it. But at no time is it anyone else's right to tell me what I should get paid. Unless that someone is the club owner.

And then it depends on how fair/honest/greedy that club owner is.

If a band is directly responsible for a large amount of revenue for the venue then. theoretically, said band is entitled to more $$. But that will almost never happen because people are too greedy.

Many, many musicians are in it for the love of music. Those in it for the $$ can never really relate to those that aren't.

There are just way too many variables involved to make blanket statements about what my band should get paid.

 

[mrcbass]

I'm totally onboard with the OP. Since everyone seems cool with his original idea, I would like to propose we extend this beyond musicians to include luthiers. I would appreciate it from this point forward if all y'all (including the OP) would put down the screwdrivers, soldering irons, wrenches and stop working on your own instruments. Stop putting together parts basses and don't even think about building your own from scratch. Every time you adjust your own string height or the relief in your neck you are taking food off my table. Every time you offer to set up a friends instrument for a six of good IPAs you are hurting the market for the rest of us luthiers.*

Cool, now that we got that figured out let's work on world peace.
*for the sarcasm impaired, that was a joke.

Is it OK if I tune my own instrument?

 

[And I]

Well, a band does not negotiate. The negotiation is between the club owner and whomever is booking the band. That would be either a booking agent or the band leader.

My point in bringing it up initially was not to advocate for the idea, but to highlight its ridiculousness. This was clearly lost on you.

You seem to have a very narrow definition of how all bands in the world must work. But sure, let's assume that only those two things which you will allow are the only two things that exist. Even then, if there is no union of bands that can demand they all get whatever the newly determined fair going rate is, some other band will accept a lower offer, whomever is doing the booking.

There isn't and won't be a union that could properly negotiate pay rates for bands at clubs. There is no way for the suggestion that we all just turn down low paying gigs to work, because some other band will just take those gigs. This is what I was saying, by pointing out that there is no practical way to prevent it.

 

[pjbassist]

@two fingers...tough crowd.

 

[mcarp555]

It might be helpful at this point if the OP could supply an approved set list and authorized brands of gear to use as well. We wouldn't want "hack bands" turning up with some cheap Squier to play Mustang Sally, would we?

 

[Slough Feg Bass]

If so many bands demanded a paycheck, then we'd never see any new bands.
depends on the gig, venue, schedules, etc.
I don't like anyone telling me what I should play for.
If I want to play for free I can do so.
If you want to hold out until your band can get paid what you want, then go for it.
It's a free market....if your band is worth the $$$ you want, then great!
If not, then it ain't my fault.

 

[Steadfast]

I guess all the big bands in America should quit.

 

[Mugre]

Should is a hypothetical and I do love that great line from "True Grit.":

"I don't entertain the hypotheticals; the world, as it is, is vexing enough."

It's this simple, charge what you're worth. Be worth what you charge. If you have all the work you can handle at your present rates, raise your rates.

Anything that's "fun" or can be fun to do as a profession always has and always will play by a different set of market rules than selling widgets or not so fun services like running alarm wires in house crawl spaces which paid A LOT more than I ever made covering Jailbreak, Breakdown or Don't Go Breaking my Heart back in the day.

 

[two fingers]

You probably should try to keep your two cents to yourself. Where does ANYONE come off telling anyone else what, where, and for what money they can play? Put a hundred in my hand for an easy three hour gig in the corner bar/cafe/restaurant, I'm fine. I'm not playing corporate jobs and weddings for that money, but what if I did? As Ella and Taj say, "ain't nobody's business but my own".

This is how your post reads to me.

"Me me I. I I me me me me. More me. Screw you."

 

[DoctorZee]

When service providers get together and agree to raise their rates, that's called "price fixing." When service providers charge whatever they feel is appropriate for their time, and purchasers make decisions based on value, that's called "a healthy market."

Set your own prices and leave us out of it.

 

[two fingers]

It's the age-old problem: "I DESERVE to be paid [X dollars]!" But when management hires cheaper labor (or sends the jobs somewhere else), then what? Do people need to pay a hundred thousand for a car because some guys in Detroit want top dollar? Competition is what drives prices and wages in the long run.

China makes a widget for $10 that would cost $35 dollars to make in the US. It's a crappy widget, but people buy the $10 because it's cheaper.

Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound, won't set up lights, etc. will play for $300. A band if good players with nice outfits, lights, good production, etc. won't get the work because the club owners would rather buy the $10 crappy widget. I get it.

 

[rd2rk]

Yes, there is a musician's union, of that I'm well aware. I was talking about a band's union, as that would be the only way for collective bargaining between all bands and all clubs like the OP is suggesting. Perhaps I could have just said it wasn't a realistic suggestion.

I grew up in NYC. "UNION" is just another word for an additional income stream for organized crime. No, thanks.
I'll play what I WANT to play, for gas money or for nothing, IF I WANT TO! If I have to drive a truck to pay the rent, I'd rather do that than compromise that which I ENJOY doing. PLAYing music. If you'd rather make a JOB out of music, go for it. That's your BUSINESS. If you're as good as you think you are, you'll do just fine.
Just MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, and don't be minding mine!

 

[two fingers]

My recent band would only play casinos, festivals and large clubs. At casinos and festivals, we typically played for 90 minutes for a minimum of $1,500, plus food. If we played a club, we usually split the night with another band and did two 60 minute sets for no less than $1,500 plus drinks.

I get the OP's point but disagree with the logic. I don't think asking "hack bands" to stay out of clubs is going to accomplish anything or open up opportunities for better bands to get better paying gigs. First of all, these "hack bands" are not about to turn down paying gigs. Second, most people in bands thinks they are rock stars and deserve more money than the venue is willing to pay. Times have changed and unfortunately, most bands are not very good and many of them play the same songs. I am shocked by how bad some of the videos are that people are posting on Facebook, Youtube, etc. People have to be realistic about how good their band really is. The solution is to have a very good band and play better clubs. If the cost of bands or a DJ is more than a bar/club is willing to pay, they will either have music pumped in via Sirius/XM, Spotify, etc, or convert to a restaurant/sports bar.

This, I suppose, this what I'm referring to. It's the delusional crowd that actually thinks their awful band is good, or the crowd that knows they suck "But I wanna play loud under lights to screw you!!!!"

It's pretty self-indulgent at that point.

But whatever.....