CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[Bunk McNulty]

Good musicians, who play what they like, for people who like what they play, regardless of pay, don't need smarmy "PROS" insulting our skills and our values, while they sell out playing whatever they think will make them the most money. If they can't pay the rent, maybe it's because they aren't as good as they THINK they are?

I also have to wonder....before you got to be as good and as professional as you are, how many gigs did YOU play for free/cheap to get the experience that made you who you THINK you are?

It's all a matter of how you look at it. We aren't enemies. We're just in different rooms, doing different things. You want to be free to do what you want to do. Self-expression first, right? That's awesome, man. You gotta be you. But I'm not wired like that. I want to make other people happy. Making money making other people happy makes me happy. As I've often said, I'll play any damn thing if it gets people out on the dance floor.

And I have a remedy for the business of thinking I'm better than I really am: Money. Money is validation. Am I a good bass-player? I don't know! It's not for me to say! But I do get paid to play. So somebody thinks what I do has value. See what I mean?

As my tagline says: I'm not an artist. I'm in the service business. If that makes me a smarmy whatever, I'm cool with it.

 

[crazyBassClown]

Is it OK if I tune my own instrument?

Think of the roadies!!!!!

 

[Anachronism]

Trying to create a monopoly on the supply side will not fix the low interest on the demand side. Not enough people care about live music for it to be worth much at every cheap bar and similar venue.

 

[Wasnex]

Give me a break. The venues that max out at $300-500 will NEVER pay more. The bartender can plug in her iPod for free and the customers couldn't care less. If the money part of being a musician is that important, why would anyone waste their time slumming it at these kinds of places? At least where I live, the only cats making decent money only play wedding and events. And that's not "make a living" money, that's on top of teaching full time and running a half dozen other side hustles to get by.

When I was doing bar gigs I made 50 bucks for four hours. That covered gas and breakfast at Dennys, so it was mainly about having fun with my friends when I was a young punk.

Years later I worked with a few "corporate bands." I think the rate was $75 for two hours or $165 for anything over two hours. The gigs were mainly in hotel ballrooms or convention centers and for large gathering such as weddings, private parties, or corporate functions. I prefer this sort of work to the bar scene. The people I worked for always wrote me a good check while I was packing up after the gig and I never worried for my personal safety.

I also have done a fair amount of pit orchestra work. Usually you are paid one rate for actual services and half rate for a few rehearsals. It's not a lot of money on a per service basis, but it can be regular and frequent work where you just show up and plug in. The problem is there is often a lot of downtime between musical numbers where you can get bored, which can make the time pass rather slowly. Doing back to back shows on the weekend would drive me nuts.

 

[micguy]

I've had bar customers get seriously PO'd because we were setting up to play and they'd rather watch the basketball game.

Been there, done that - except it was hockey. We delayed our start until after the game ended.

 

[City]

China makes a widget for $10 that would cost $35 dollars to make in the US. It's a crappy widget, but people buy the $10 because it's cheaper.

Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound, won't set up lights, etc. will play for $300. A band if good players with nice outfits, lights, good production, etc. won't get the work because the club owners would rather buy the $10 crappy widget. I get it.

I think Club owners would pay for it, if the clientele would come, and the club clientele would like it. We know there are bars that want good old fashion country rock....we didn't do that, we didn't play there. Society itself has gotten so segmented, but that is another thread on another day.

 

[Savage_Dreams]

Not to be a jerk, but couldn’t a 60 year old dj be in the same boat as 60 year olds in a band? There is a certain demographic and expectation from an audience that maybe most 60 year olds don’t have to give. If he’s being replaced by young garage bands it doesn’t sound like he’s doing wedding gigs. Young audiences want young acts.

 

[electracoyote]

Having run an upscale mobile DJ company focused exclusively on private event deep pockets and big budgets (weddings, corporate, etc.), all black tie stuff (the vast majority of my events were formalwear/tuxedo), and having attempted to duplicate that level of quality and service to the same client in a live party band scenario (playing all the dance floor variety party songs you can think of), I can say this with a high degree of certainty:

Both the DJ and live band entertainment markets are experiencing a marked depression due to more and more clients shopping for entertainment with the lowest price being the main priority, and so-called "entertainers" cutting corners and catering to those clients by undercutting the market pricing and accepting insultingly low fees.

Why a talent buyer or party planner would want to compromise the overall success of their event with low price point entertainment is beyond me, but it's amazing how often they do. I sometimes follow up on the entertainers these talent buyers settle on and I am consistently stunned by how inappropriate and bad the song selection and presentation is.

About ten years ago, I was making a comfortable living wage charging between $900 and $1500 per event as a mobile DJ, and entertaining at around 100 events a year. Do the math; that's a respectable annual income. I could never get away with that today.

I will add that for the past three years I took a full live band with keys, horns, multiple lead singers, and the whole enchilada to private events, and even though it was more work and less money after splitting up the fee, clients were generally much more impressed and happier with a live band than a DJ. A live band that applies a professional DJ business model and mentality to the entertainment, puts the client and their guests/audiences first, structures an appropriate playlist and brings it with energy and style is a much better value than a DJ.

And that same band can usually earn respect and repeat bookings at the better public dance floor "A" rooms in town.

I shut my upscale event party band down after three years with a five-star rating on Gigmasters, and that's the hardest I've worked at anything in my life. The competition is fierce at that level, and I'm not ashamed to admit it burned me out. Being 60 years old didn't sweeten the pot.

 

[Sixgunn]

Unfortunately we're not exempt from a very basic principal of free market capitalism: Supply and demand.

 

[CaseyVancouver]

DJ’s actually can now join my local of the American Federation of Musicians.

 

[iamoldschool]

Well that’s your two cents so here’s mine. I make a pretty good salary at my day job in IT. If I want to blow off a little steam by playing bass on a $300 gig at the local Elks club, I’ll dang well do it and I don’t need your permission. What you don’t get is the money is secondary to most of us. My primary motivation is fun. Shocking, isn’t it.

 

[mrcbass]

Think of the roadies!!!!!

Fair enough. When I get a roadie, he can tune my bass...

 

[Raw N Low]

A buddy and I were talking about that this morning. Skill level and the venue really go hand in hand when it comes to compensation. The way I see it, it's kinda like turf and territory.

The bands that make a killing here in Colorado are the super polished corporate bands and hardcore tribute bands. One of the most popular venues in Denver had tribute bands for Alice in Chains, No Doubt, and Red Hot Chili Peppers. Each band painstakingly made sure to look and play the part of the bands they were covering. Tickets were sold at $20 a pop for a place that had a max occupancy of 600 people. The show sold and was packed from wall to wall. Certainly enough to make the actual bands jealous but, I digress...

A large part of getting proper compensation is knowing the lay of the land and the battlegrounds you engage. When top predators are competing for that same thing, it tends to get muddy.

 

[tycobb73]

Im more sick of seeing this argument than i am of hearing mustang Sally.

 

[Father Gino]

I’ve been playing in bars for 40 years or so. It’s a nasty business for all concerned trying to make a buck off of it. How much money a bar band deserves in the eyes of the club owner equals how much beer is consumed by the crowd. Doesn’t really matter if you can or can’t play, look bad, smell bad, make people dance or happy or anything. At the end of the night, we’re all beer salesmen.

 

[rd2rk]

It's all a matter of how you look at it. We aren't enemies. We're just in different rooms, doing different things. You want to be free to do what you want to do. Self-expression first, right? That's awesome, man. You gotta be you. But I'm not wired like that. I want to make other people happy. Making money making other people happy makes me happy. As I've often said, I'll play any damn thing if it gets people out on the dance floor.

And I have a remedy for the business of thinking I'm better than I really am: Money. Money is validation. Am I a good bass-player? I don't know! It's not for me to say! But I do get paid to play. So somebody thinks what I do has value. See what I mean?

As my tagline says: I'm not an artist. I'm in the service business. If that makes me a smarmy whatever, I'm cool with it.

I agree that we are not enemies. Maybe we need to be more aware of how the words we use to describe ourselves vs others are actually perceived by those others. Your post implies that those of your persuasion are more focused on making people happy, and that money is the proof of your success at that. As many have stated here (and it's also my experience on the club level), club owners are in business to make money, and that means selling drinks. Your band can sound like rat's a$$, but if the joint is jumpin' and the drinks are flowin' the boss is happy! As long as he pays you what you think you're worth, you're happy! And I'm happy for you!

You're only a smarmy whatever when you imply/believe that you're a better, more professional musician than someone who gets paid less because they're doing what they WANT to do, vs doing whatever it takes to make money. There's nothing inherently right or wrong about either position. There's plenty of smarmy originals-only cats out there too! I've seen the Rolling Stones (one of my all-time favorite bands) twice, and they sucked, both times, despite being some of the richest players on earth! Makes me wonder if they could even make it as a bar band!

If money is validation for you, great. Just don't think that more money makes you better than someone for whom the only validation necessary is the music, and a few people who enjoy hearing it.

 

[jharms80439]

Of course one could insert the (rather) obscure reference to Adam Smith and the invisible hand (everyone pursuing their own self interests...) - but it really is really simple economics.

As an increased supply (existing bands, new bands and/or DJ's) enters the market - AND demand remains constant (the consumption of music), prices drop. The bad news is that as phones/pads make it easier for music to be presented (i.e. DJ's), prices for DJ's will continue to drop. Then add in new bands trying to get started, and prices drop further. FWIW, I'm not surprised that Alexa, Dot or other spyware infused or music streaming device isn't already a DJ - now actually, that would be hilarious - a DJ streaming music via a phone/pad is put out of business with an automaton device. But I digress.

The GOOD news is that performers putting out awesome music, coupled with lights, band engagement with the crowd, etc. is the marginal utility (the utility on the margin of the new band that doesn't have lights, crowd engagement, play good music, etc.) will actually get more people to pay MORE for their services than for the inferior quality of the newbie band.

The adage that practice pays off is appropriate here too. People (bar owners, wedding parties, or just concert goers) WILL pay for the higher marginal utility of a good band.

Yes, it does sort of suck that newbie bands will take some of the air out of the market - and rather good bands will suffer in the short run by not earning enough to stay in the game - but that is the way that market economics work.

FWIW, I played for free in my church for almost 10 years and (at the same time) subbed for some pretty terrific players when they had other commitments and called me. I ended up making a bit of cash on the side while I worked a very full time job in the corporate world - and I also made a bit of a name for myself as a sub player (wide repertoire, not an a$$, on-time, no attitude, etc) and was called pretty often... Now this was 10-15 years ago and most of the bands that I played with are now gone and are only remembered as a wisp of unimportant history. But they are fond memories for me. Hopefully I touched a few good souls too.

Fast forward to now and I'm playing for me, though I do get together with friends (who in their own right are down right terrific players) - but I don't even get close to deluding myself that I am willing to put in the time/effort to play out again. Even now with our kids grown - one in and one now out of college - I still don't have the time to play out full time, but I still do play (quite a bit actually). It's now for me being a better musician and playing good music with other musicians than it is for those bystanders that happen to be at the jam.

Oh and one more thing. Yes, I'm married (28 years) and my wife plays a good CD player but not an instrument - (nor any sort of iPod or other digital music device). She comes with me partly to support my musician habit, but primarily is there to listen to some really good music - oh and she didn't have to pay a cover charge either. Lastly, we do see local musicians all the time (1-2 times/month) and yes, we pay the cover but don't drink a lot to keep it affordable and we'll keep doing the same for those that do it for the music - and not necessarily for the economic benefit...

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Yes, it really is simple economics. Yes, it sucks. (And) Yes, that is how the market works...

John

 

[Steven Ayres]

All you folks saying it is what it is, get used to it: be aware that this is the same mindset that kept people working back-breaking 60-hour weeks for peanuts until the Great Depression showed everyone that what's good for the bosses ain't necessarily what's good for workers. The result was unions and a large, secure middle class.

If there was a working union in my area serious about making things happen, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. But it's been many decades since the Musician's Union (former member here) did any real investing in building quality markets. So now, outside a few urban-hipster areas, most of us are competing in markets that just don't care, and any extra effort we put in beyond playing the hits like the record and wearing reasonably clean cargo shorts is dead cost. This is where "get used to it" leads.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

excuse me, I've messed up the formatting...

Your band can sound like rat's a$$, but if the joint is jumpin' and the drinks are flowin' the boss is happy! As long as he pays you what you think you're worth, you're happy! And I'm happy for you!

That is entirely true. A parable: Back in the mid-90's a lawyer friend once found himself in first class on a flight from LA to New York, sitting next to Gene Simmons. He was answering fan mail. My friend asked him why. Didn't he have secretaries for that sort of thing? To which Gene replied: "Do you know what the difference is between Kiss and 10,000 other garage bands? (Beat) Nothing! That's why."

This is also entirely true: "There's nothing inherently right or wrong about either position. There's plenty of smarmy originals-only cats out there too! I've seen the Rolling Stones (one of my all-time favorite bands) twice, and they sucked, both times, despite being some of the richest players on earth! Makes me wonder if they could even make it as a bar band!"

If money is validation for you, great. Just don't think that more money makes you better than someone for whom the only validation necessary is the music, and a few people who enjoy hearing it.

I don't. Believe me, I don't. Hey, there are 13-year-old Korean kids who can cut me six ways for Sunday. All I have is that my English is better and I've been around longer.

 

[brianrost]

If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Tell that to all the bars in Boston that have been paying $150 for a band (regardless of size) for the last 35 years. I don't know what kind of music and venues people play to get $200 or more a man on a regular basis, but near Boston it sure isn't playing in bars.