CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[Greg Waldon]

Sounds like most people have venues to play in even if for low pay. In my area, there are only a couple of places big enough to have a crowd of any size (about an hours drive away). Even then, they are not top notch venues. The only local places pretty much cater to singer/songwriter artist. I believe they are strictly paid from tips. Future doesn’t look bright for bands in my neck of the woods.

 

[Vooter]

We made $23 last Sunday night! And that was from a crowd of about nine...

 

[RustyAxe]

This is how your post reads to me.

"Me me I. I I me me me me. More me. Screw you."

And ... ?

 

[Session1969]

My recent band would only play casinos, festivals and large clubs. At casinos and festivals, we typically played for 90 minutes for a minimum of $1,500, plus food. If we played a club, we usually split the night with another band and did two 60 minute sets for no less than $1,500 plus drinks.

I get the OP's point but disagree with the logic. I don't think asking "hack bands" to stay out of clubs is going to accomplish anything or open up opportunities for better bands to get better paying gigs. First of all, these "hack bands" are not about to turn down paying gigs. Second, most people in bands thinks they are rock stars and deserve more money than the venue is willing to pay. Times have changed and unfortunately, most bands are not very good and many of them play the same songs. I am shocked by how bad some of the videos are that people are posting on Facebook, Youtube, etc. People have to be realistic about how good their band really is. The solution is to have a very good band and play better clubs. If the cost of bands or a DJ is more than a bar/club is willing to pay, they will either have music pumped in via Sirius/XM, Spotify, etc, or convert to a restaurant/sports bar.

This is a standard that more of us need to keep in mind. The money is out there.

 

[rd2rk]

Why be insulted?

This is what I was replying to:

"Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound, won't set up lights, etc. will play for $300. A band if good players with nice outfits, lights, good production, etc. won't get the work because the club owners would rather buy the $10 crappy widget. I get it."

I was defending my right to play for whatever amount (or for free) that I choose, against the attitude that, by doing so, I was a "hack", and somehow causing economic hardship to "pros". He's totally right about club owners.

If you're bothered by someone being insulted by an insult, consider that there IS a difference between being righteously offended, and being a "snowflake".

BTW - I consider twofingers to be an outstanding member of this community, and I don't think he really intended to be as insulting as it came across to me. We just happen to disagree (strongly) on this subject.

 

[Vin Taj]

"2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us."

In my area uts the DJs killing us. They only want 200 when I ask for 600

I get places throwing this in my face.... , some even ask me to play for free to see " if we can pack the place " ... Then they will pay us next time.
So i say every time they ask that - , ya sure , so then its equally ok for my friends and family to show up & drink and eat for free, to see if we like the food , then we will pay next time if we do.
And they are just appalled by this ! Some even laugh , because apparently it's okay for them can ask me to bring five grand of gear & 4 people to work for free, but when I asked for free food or beer ,I'm somehow the a-hole.

 

[guy n. cognito]

If you're bothered by someone being insulted by an insult, consider that there IS a difference between being righteously offended, and being a "snowflake".

And we’ve gone there.....

 

[Steven Ayres]

It didn’t take long for someone to suggest that unionization could fix this....

I don't think I suggested that,specifically. Rather, I'm saying that relying on players working for nothing or almost nothing has had a majority influence on destroying the market. I don't think that can get fixed until musicians and others are willing to invest in it.

 

[BioDriver]

So basically, market saturation.

 

[guy n. cognito]

I don't think I suggested that,specifically. Rather, I'm saying that relying on players working for nothing or almost nothing has had a majority influence on destroying the market. I don't think that can get fixed until musicians and others are willing to invest in it.

Ok...

 

[Brad Johnson]

This is what I was replying to:

"Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound, won't set up lights, etc. will play for $300. A band if good players with nice outfits, lights, good production, etc. won't get the work because the club owners would rather buy the $10 crappy widget. I get it."

I was defending my right to play for whatever amount (or for free) that I choose, against the attitude that, by doing so, I was a "hack", and somehow causing economic hardship to "pros". He's totally right about club owners.

If you're bothered by someone being insulted by an insult, consider that there IS a difference between being righteously offended, and being a "snowflake".

BTW - I consider twofingers to be an outstanding member of this community, and I don't think he really intended to be as insulting as it came across to me. We just happen to disagree (strongly) on this subject.

Which part do you feel insulted you personally? That's what I'm missing. Do you feel like you're a hack?

BTW The idea that I'm bothered by you being insulted is a hoot.

 

[five7]

Ah, poor d.j.

 

[rd2rk]

Which part do you feel insulted you personally? That's what I'm missing. Do you feel like you're a hack?

BTW The idea that I'm bothered by you being insulted is a hoot.

In the belief that you really wanted to understand, I explained myself.
The fact that you're pursuing this gives the lie to your (BTW) statement.
Sounds to me like you're bothered. Or, just looking for a fight. Since (as a supporting member) you're obviously not a troll, maybe you'd like to return my courtesy by explaining yourself?

 

[Remoman]

...some even ask me to play for free to see " if we can pack the place " ... Then they will pay us next time.
So i say every time they ask that - , ya sure , so then its equally ok for my friends and family to show up & drink and eat for free, to see if we like the food , then we will pay next time if we do.
And they are just appalled by this ! Some even laugh , because apparently it's okay for them can ask me to bring five grand of gear & 4 people to work for free, but when I asked for free food or beer ,I'm somehow the a-hole.

Yup, that's that small business save is more important than make mentality. Giving the band say a $250 tab for them and their SO's costs the owner a small fraction of that, and it's very likely that having you there, even if you don't come close to packing the place, will bring in more than enough additional sales that he wouldn't have had that night to cover his cost. A counter offer like yours is something the owner should be jumping all over. But they just can't fathom it.

 

[Wasnex]

What I'm getting at by all of that is that, the only moral justification for unions is to protect the health and safety of workers from the depredations of immoral capitalists. The amount of pay and benefits for services rendered is a matter to be decided between provider and purchaser, subject to free market forces (supply and demand). When unions negotiate health and safety issues, that's the working class defending itself. When unions make wage and benefit demands, that's called "extortion". The decline of unionism in America is directly the result of unions and union members' failure to understand that. The decline of the once "secure" middle class is the inevitable result.

I think most of your post is informative and also pretty accurate. I think you may be missing the point a bit on the distinction between the working class defending itself and extortion though. The balance of power in the employer/employee relationship generally favors the employer. Collective bargaining is a way of evening out the power structure so employees can demand more of a fair share of the take. IMHO extortion comes in when employees demand more than their fair share. The problem is what is fair is somewhat of a gray area...and if things are to be totally fair, total compensation should vary with the profitability of the company. In general people don't usually tolerate having their wages decreased very well...the psychology is all wrong.

I too have a bit of sour taste for unions because I think they often do engage in extortion and have some responsibility for the decline of the middle class...but I think big business is far more unethical and far more responsible for the decline of the middle class. Offshoring is not necessarily done because a company cannot make a profit with a domestic work force; it's done to maximize profits. So the domestic workforce is kicked to the curb, so the fat cats can make a few more millions.

People tend to make a big deal about big government...I think the real problem is big business has too much influence over the government. There is the idea that we should have a separation of church and state. IMHO, we should also embrace a separation of business and state. IMHO, the state should be responsive to the people, and they can't do this if every politician is beholden to big business.

From what I have seen, employee owned companies (ESOPs) seem to do pretty well. Research on Employee Ownership, Corporate Performance, and Employee Compensation

 

[DJ Bebop]

And remember, DJ's didn't "take" our gigs because they were cheaper - the ones I know often cost much more - they earned the gigs often by being better.

Songs people want to hear, at easily controlled volume, no endless wanking, no dumb stuff on the mic, and sadly often better "performance". Quick easy setups with no feedbacking or awkward lulls. And did I mention volume?

Also generally better promoters and self-promoters. And volume.

The ones I know were former pro or semi-pro musicians that saw opportunity to be onstage without the endless band drama and dysfunction. Kudos and credit where due.

Trends change. What's old becomes new again. That's all part of the ups & downs. However Pro, well-dressed, responsible bands with a current setlist and sane volume lost few if any gigs to so-so DJ's.

My son was doing sound for a band that had no live back line or drums, (electronic drum though). All in ear and FOH only so, if anyone at the big corporate gigs asked if the band could turn up or down, all he had to do was turn the big knob up or down and not effect anything on stage. He would make $1000 to $1500 depending on the gig just running sound for those guys. So there's that...

 

[Brad Johnson]

In the belief that you really wanted to understand, I explained myself.
The fact that you're pursuing this gives the lie to your (BTW) statement.
Sounds to me like you're bothered. Or, just looking for a fight. Since (as a supporting member) you're obviously not a troll, maybe you'd like to return my courtesy by explaining yourself?

I'm "pursuing" this because this is a conversation on the internet and I'm not the only one responding.
Ya think?

I'll try. Unless you consider yourself a hack, why would you be insulted by thinking that an internet persona is talking about YOU? Not generally. Do you not care how you look or sound? IOW was he accurately describing YOU?

If you are cool with whatever mode you choose to operate in, for whatever pay or lack thereof, why did he trigger you?

Now you think I'm trolling and just picking a fight because I honestly don't get the angst . And despite the fact that you decided to lash out at me, my blood pressure has remained constant. But if it somehow makes you feel better, I'm mad as hell.


Do you get what I'm asking? If not, don't sweat it. Seriously.

 

[Hambone70]

My son was doing sound for a band that had no live back line or drums (electric drum). All in ear and FOH only so, if anyone at the big corporate gigs asked if the band could turn up or down, all he had to do was turn the big nob up or down and not effect anything on stage. He would make $1000 to $1500 depending on the gig just running sound for those guys. So there's that...

Nice.

Some bands just don’t get this.

 

[electracoyote]

Did the corporate/wedding DJ thing for a while. Charged $2000+, and had plenty of work. How? Awesome sound system tuned to each venue, giant projector screens with custom-made graphics and videos, live remote pan/tilt/zoom cameras feeding live dance floor video, fully choreographed and sequenced lighting, crowd could text to the big screens, recorded all video/audio and supplied an edited DVD of the evening. Was it hard work? You bet! And stressful with everything that could (and sometimes did) go wrong.

I did a lot of that as an upscale DJ. I worked solo, and did all my own set up/tear down, lots of visuals and extras. Long days. I have a chiller fog machine that creates low-lying fog so couples could have their first dance on a cloud. Gobos. Personalized giant Power Point presentations. I hung actual mirror balls with pin spots, which is still considered a great effect in ballrooms. All kinds of cool stuff.

In my neighborhood, wedding couples and party planners are often not interested in all that stuff any more, and since they are largely self-funded and self-planning their weddings/events they are overly focused on pricing, want to undercut the pricing for all that value added stuff (from all vendors), and more often likely to go with a simpler cheaper DJ, unmindful of the effect on their event.

Also, you didn't mention pre-event planning, which is where the real value comes in. Inexperienced DJ's often miss a lot of opportunities during pre-event planning (if they even do any); experienced DJ's know how to personalize a wedding or corporate event and make it a truly once-in-a-lifetime unique moment.

Unfortunately for DJ's like you and me, the price you can command has plummeted in my neighborhood, and all the bells and whistles don't matter as much.

Perhaps bands (and DJs) could add a few unique elements to set them above the bottom feeders. Improved sound quality (read appropriate volume and hi-fidelity mix for the venue/type of event) for one. Modern digital PA is relatively inexpensive, quick to set up, and easy to operate. DMX LED lighting has never been cheaper or easier, and can add a tremendous dramatic effect if used well. There are lots of ideas. Create the demand.

+1

You can't give in to the temptation to dumb it down and cut corners; doing so makes you compete with the bottom feeders and appeal to the tire kickers. I'd rather keep the standards high, compete with the cream of the crop, and patiently wait for the smart clients with a healthy budget and awareness of how important the entertainment is for their event. Entertainment is in the Top Three things that can make or break a private event and leave long-lasting memories and impressions.

And this definitely applies to bands in this market as well as DJ's.

 

[Usidore T Blue]

I don't think I suggested that,specifically. Rather, I'm saying that relying on players working for nothing or almost nothing has had a majority influence on destroying the market. I don't think that can get fixed until musicians and others are willing to invest in it.

What do you mean by musicians? Full-time professional musicians, whatever the income level, or the professional people who play at music part time? I would suggest taking no advice at all from the latter about this subject, though you will never get us to shut up about it or indeed, about any other subjct.