CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[Spidey2112]

Around here, $300 for a club, $500-600 for a "cheap" private party, and upward of $1500 or more for a "swanky" event.

Bands should be getting at least double that in every category. I wouldn't do a wedding for a dime under three grand, and even that is low. I won't do a bar gig for less than $850, and I'm pretty much a hobbyist these days. For a 5 peice band, that's $100 for each member, $100 for whomever booked the gig (be it a band member or not), $150 for a sound guy and fifty bucks that gets everyone $10 more if we don't have any small expenses. We all own parts of the PA. For instance, I currently provide lights. Female singer owns PA tops and stands, etc.

We are about to do our third gig. We get $900 at one club. We get a guarentee of $850 plus $1 for every person who comes in the door (paid or not) at the other.

 

[DJ Bebop]

This is what I was replying to:

"Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound, won't set up lights, etc. will play for $300.

I was defending my right to play for whatever amount (or for free) that I choose, against the attitude that, by doing so, I was a "hack", and somehow causing economic hardship to "pros". He's totally right about club owners.

So, dress nice and you won't be a "hack".

 

[frankie5string]

Lol... One of the bands I play in doesn't play for less than $1000 a night and INCLUDES a DJ to play between our sets! <runs and hides>

 

[Chickenwheels]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

Up the production and add something unique, creative and appealing so as to move into a better paying market place (high end corporates, product launches, fashion shows)?

 

[ArtechnikA]

...A band if good players with nice outfits, lights, good production, etc. won't get the work because the club owners would rather buy the $10 crappy widget. I get it.

The club owners do the math.
When (if) the 'good' band can prove that they can increase revenue (net gain) they will get the call.
Telling the venue management booking your band means a net decrease in revenue is negotiating from a position of weakness...

 

[rd2rk]

I think most of your post is informative and also pretty accurate.

Thank you.

"I think you may be missing the point a bit on the distinction between the working class defending itself and extortion though. The balance of power in the employer/employee relationship generally favors the employer. Collective bargaining is a way of evening out the power structure so employees can demand more of a fair share of the take. IMHO extortion comes in when employees demand more than their fair share."

ex·tor·tion
/ikˈstôrSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.
"he used bribery and extortion to build himself a huge, art-stuffed mansion"
synonyms: demanding money with menaces, exaction, extraction, blackmail; shakedown
"he was arrested on a charge of extortion"

Collective bargaining (relating to pay and benefits) ends and extortion begins when a union picket line disrupts a business' operation. Safety and health are a separate issue.

"I too have a bit of sour taste for unions because I think they often do engage in extortion and have some responsibility for the decline of the middle class...but I think big business is far more unethical and far more responsible for the decline of the middle class. Offshoring is not necessarily done because a company cannot make a profit with a domestic work force; it's done to maximize profits. So the domestic workforce is kicked to the curb, so the fat cats can make a few more millions."

See my previous post re: the musician's union in NYC, and morality and capitalism.

"People tend to make a big deal about big government...I think the real problem is big business has too much influence over the government. There is the idea that we should have a separation of church and state. IMHO, we should also embrace a separation of business and state. IMHO, the state should be responsive to the people, and they can't do this if every politician is beholden to big business."

No argument there. Ayn Rand may have been a bit of a zealot, but she was, in many ways, spot on!

"From what I have seen, employee owned companies (ESOPs) seem to do pretty well."

From 1971 to 1982 I was privileged to be a part owner of a relatively large employee-owned book publishing and distribution company that was very successful. It was eventually driven out of business (2002) by Amazon, in part as a result of the demands of the socialist contingent having made it impossible to afford the technological innovations that might have saved it. A damned shame!

 

[MobileHolmes]

One thing working against us is that music is so often tied to bars and restaraunts. Which frequently run pretty low margins and have high failure rates. Restaraunt/bar we play semi regularly started off doing music of various sorts 5 nights a week. And lost money hand over fist. We just aren’t that big of a town, and people aren’t going out for cocktails and background music on a Tuesday. Cut back to weekends. Then just sporadically. They like us and we turn out a crowd, so they’ll book us once or twice a month if we want it, but the economics just didn’t work for doing much more. Another place we play has music only Fridays. Now they only book full bands once a month to cut costs. The rest are acoustic duos or smaller. And, frankly, it probably makes sense. The room they have for bands is small, and It really Didn’t seem like entertainment on a Friday was driving much more sales than just being open on a Friday

 

[MobileHolmes]

The club owners do the math.
When (if) the 'good' band can prove that they can increase revenue (net gain) they will get the call.
Telling the venue management booking your band means a net decrease in revenue is negotiating from a position of weakness...

Like so many of these threads, musicians want to talk talent, but bar owners care about profits and losses. If the hack band brings 50 paying friends in, that’s good enough for the owner.

 

[two fingers]

Well that’s your two cents so here’s mine. I make a pretty good salary at my day job in IT. If I want to blow off a little steam by playing bass on a $300 gig at the local Elks club, I’ll dang well do it and I don’t need your permission. What you don’t get is the money is secondary to most of us. My primary motivation is fun. Shocking, isn’t it.

I never even implied that you need my permission.

I do fine financially as well.

Elks Clubs and night clubs are two different markets as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Greyvagabond]

Not sure if serious...

Lol we'd better stop while we're ahead before this thread get's stopped for politics!

 

[Bass Viking]

And one story: A guy from another band helped get us an introduction to a club. Our BL returned the favor by booking his band in another venue for $600. This guy actually went to the club owner and said "Oh, we'll take $300." His explanation to us was that he knew his band couldn't put on the same kind of show we do. Now maybe that kind of humility is admirable, but I wanted to strangle him. For a long time.

 

[Bass Viking]

Is it OK if I tune my own instrument?

Doesn't that void the warranty?

 

[dan1952]

Years ago there was a duo around this atea that worked ALL the time, getting as much or money than any of the 4 or 5 piece bands were getting. This duo was AWFUL- neither could play even the simplest song correctly, neither could
sing in tune, and they usually drank a case of beer apiece over a 3 or 4 set gig, ending up with both guys in a drunken stupor. Why did they get paid so well? They were really entertaining, very funny, and had a big following, 40 or 50 people who would show up for every gig in a 75 or 100 seat club. Club owners would usually have to turn people away, even though half the fun was seeing whether either or both guys would fall down or pass out. Bottom line - club owner makes money, club owner pays musicians. If Led
Zeppelin came in and played to 3 people and the bartender, they won't get paid much.

 

[rd2rk]

I'm "pursuing" this because this is a conversation on the internet and I'm not the only one responding.
Ya think?

I'll try. Unless you consider yourself a hack, why would you be insulted by thinking that an internet persona is talking about YOU? Not generally. Do you not care how you look or sound? IOW was he accurately describing YOU?

If you are cool with whatever mode you choose to operate in, for whatever pay or lack thereof, why did he trigger you?

Now you think I'm trolling and just picking a fight because I honestly don't get the angst . And despite the fact that you decided to lash out at me, my blood pressure has remained constant. But if it somehow makes you feel better, I'm mad as hell.


Do you get what I'm asking? If not, don't sweat it. Seriously.

.....because this is a conversation on the internet and I'm not the only one responding.
Ya think?

First, this conversation is getting on to 8 pages, and this is your only contribution?

Second, your entire attitude has been confrontational. Yes, you're looking for a fight.

Third, you assume that I was personally insulted. Read it again. I was speaking for anyone who might not agree with the posters' contentions, in the same way that (I fully recognize) he was speaking to the larger group.

Fourth, I've been doing this since 1963, when $100 for a 5 piece band to play for four hours was good money! I've been in wedding bands, cover bands, original bands, rock, blues and country bands, and played dive bars and stadiums (well, one!), wearing matching tuxes or blue jeans as appropriate to a professional presentation.(never wore shorts on stage!).

I've been fully engaged in this discussion, not trying to start a fight with anybody, including the poster with whom I was in disagreement.

It's YOU who's making a big deal out of this, imagining (and somehow being bothered by) angst that's only in your mind. LET IT GO!

 

[dan1952]

Years ago there was a duo around this area that worked ALL the time, getting as much or more money than any of the 4 or 5 piece bands were getting. This duo was AWFUL- neither could play even the simplest song correctly, neither could
sing in tune, and they usually drank a case of beer apiece over a 3 or 4 set gig, ending up with both guys in a drunken stupor. Why did they get paid so well? They were really entertaining, very funny, and had a big following, 40 or 50 people who would show up for every gig in a 75 or 100 seat club. Club owners would usually have to turn people away, even though half the fun was seeing whether either or both guys would fall down or pass out. Bottom line - club owner makes money, club owner pays musicians. If Led
Zeppelin came in and played to 3 people and the bartender, they won't get paid much.

 

[ArtechnikA]

Like so many of these threads, musicians want to talk talent, but bar owners care about profits and losses. If the hack band brings 50 paying friends in, that’s good enough for the owner.

Exactly.
Around here, if you can draw 50 people, you can put on 'The Princess Bride' with finger puppets...

 

[MobileHolmes]

Exactly.
Around here, if you can draw 50 people, you can put on 'The Princess Bride' with finger puppets...

I’d probably pay to see that

 

[Steven Ayres]

What do you mean by musicians?

Anyone who goes beyond aspirational dabbling and girl-baiting to actually work to understand the craft and approach it in a professional manner is a musician in my book. "Professional manner" includes having respect for yourself and what you're doing as a business, and awareness of the delicacy of the gig economy for all of us who must work in it. I'm totally with Two Fingers on this, and I've seen how it works across over 45 years onstage.

 

[two fingers]

There’s what people claim to get paid for playing and then there’s the reality. A three piece band of just about any caliber would never see stage time in my neck of the woods if they refused to work for anything less than $400, and there is some very competition out there. My position on this has evolved over time and in my opinion boils down to the quality of the band. I think it’s more than coincidental that the hacks playing for beer and wings are also the same bands driving people out of bars with their over the top volume and simplified versions of Skynard songs. I don’t think it’s necessarily that people should be asking for more money so much as there are just way too many crappy bands willing to work for peanuts. The real players will set the market price. There just has to be real players in the market.

Agreed. I understand that the "all about me and what I want" crowd has to get their ego fix by playing on a stage. (Clearly, the MUSIC isn't the important part. It's doing it in front of people while CLAIMING it's the music.)

But, for crap sake, if you can't do any better than your grass cutting clothes, and you can't be bothered with any production, at LEAST take FIVE MINUTES and learn the dang songs correctly.

Yes, audiences know when you can't be bothered with the bridge chords so you continue to play chorus chords through the bridge. They might not know WHAT exactly is wrong. But they know SOMETHING is wrong.

You guys wanna play for fun because your job or marriage or mom sucks and you need a release? FINE! Do it.

Just stop doing it HORRIBLY.

That's the frustrating part. THAT'S why I harp on hack garage bands. Many of them can't be bothered with ANYTHING quality about the show. It's JUST about their need to get a tiny ego shot by being in front of people.

Dress up? Nope.

Lights? Forget you pal. I ain't setn up lights.

ANY kind of look or effort to set yourselves apart from folks wandering the isles of Wal-Mart???? Screw you. My socks and sandles are rock-n-roll enough for me.

But then to not even be bothered to PLAY WELL????? To put your neighbor up front to sing just because he has a PULSE but couldn't carry a tune in a dump truck? To simplify the format and chord voicings of basic rock songs that you've been playing since the 60s????

COME ON! YOU'RE NOT EVEN TRYING! You don't have a "right" to be on stage just because you woke up today. I don't care what the hippies told you. You aren't special just because you can breathe.

At the very least, play the ever loving crap out of whatever you play. If you're going to drag down the economic end, don't take the music end with it.

Bunch of entitled.....

 

[jharms80439]

Slightly off topic...

My wife and I watched a Linda Ronstadt interview on “Sunday Morning” (CBS?) yesterday morning. Ms. Ronstadt now has advanced Parkinson's disease (diagnosed in ~2000) and doesn’t perform.

In the interview she mentioned that singing her "hits" at the peak of her career became somewhat akin to listening to a washing machine. She also said that she wanted to continue making music but the concert goers wanted her to hear her "hits". When she was at the peak of performing, I totally get it.

(And) My wife and I paid dearly for 2x Robert Plant tickets last year. Not the worst performance we’ve seen, but definitely in the bottom 2-3 ever (Stones were worse). Both are still selling tickets, but for how long?

Though I don’t have the joy of playing a hit 1,000 times, even when covering, I wasn’t subbing THAT much. Perhaps commercial success has $$$, but the music suffers as ability fades?

Personally, I’ll (hopefully) keep making good and interesting music with friends in our jam group and leave the $$$ to those that have both the talent and the patience to play the same song(s) over and over and over and over (etc.) publicly.

God love ‘em... I’ll listen while they’re still great and to the original CDs/vinyl when they’re not - and to the new bands too.

My advice, play music. If you’re in it for the $$$, the odds are highly against you.

John