CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[hbarcat]

A few observations.

1) OP isn't talking about bands playing for $300 - $400 because they enjoy playing for the fun of it and don't care about the money. He's talking about a 4 piece band playing for a jar of tip money and only doing so because they believe that they don't have the leverage to ask for more in the current working environment.

2) I've learned that the bands that I've been in the past few decades do get paid fairly well because I insist on being in a band that acts and performs professionally. Some "amateur hour" group of hacks playing for tip money has no effect whatsoever on what my band gets paid. We're playing at a higher level than that and those guys aren't competing with us. When we book gigs, it's always with venues who are fully aware that we have the ability to draw a crowd that will stay and drink until closing and that's worth the price we demand.

3) What's changed the most is the rapid increase in the number of garage bands in the past several years. It used to be a requirement that anyone who wanted to become a musician had to put up some serious money to buy a guitar or bass and an amp or drums and then find someone who is willing to let them jam at full volume in their house or else rent a studio. Now, a couple hundred bucks gets you a decent entry level package and many beginning bands are using IEM's and electronic drums so the cost is much less and they can practice in silence in their living rooms.

4) Competition is part of the free market. Most bands who are getting paid little more than gas money for a gig are typically not worth more than that. If your band wants to get paid enough to make it worth your while, then you should make sure your band is good enough to demand decent pay. The bottom line is, better bands make more money.

 

[Chickenwheels]

China makes a widget for $10 that would cost $35 dollars to make in the US. It's a crappy widget, but people buy the $10 because it's cheaper.

Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound, won't set up lights, etc. will play for $300. A band if good players with nice outfits, lights, good production, etc. won't get the work because the club owners would rather buy the $10 crappy widget. I get it.

Get out of the widget business and into something with intellectual property rights?

 

[two fingers]

When i was younger I earned my living as a Roadie..... then as a DJ and Lazer/Lighting tech. I'm also a musician and for the last 25 years have earned my living as a pub/club manager.




Not really.
Most venues these days, at least in Australia and New Zealand, put on live music because either the owner or manager likes live music themselves, not because they think it will make them any money. In most cases they would make more bottom line profit by not having a band on. I've covered this before here if you want a bit of the venue perspective.

Do the club owners LIKE awful bands?

 

[Chickenwheels]

Man, I need to start writing hit songs so I can make money off these upstart bands and poor DJs...

 

[BAG]

Do the club owners LIKE awful bands?

Nobody likes awful bands.... what are you getting at?

 

[BassAndReeds]

Garage Bands are definitely the reason why I can’t make money as a Harpsichordist anymore.

Or maybe it’s just because times, technology, and business changes.

But I’m bitter, and emotionally it satisfies me to blame someone. Rather than come to the realization that I haven’t modernized my business to keep up with the current.

 

[Hambone70]

Man, I need to start writing hit songs so I can make money off these upstart bands and poor DJs...

IMO, songwriting is where the real talent lies.

You just have to watch YouTube to see 8 year olds that can play circles around many of us!

 

[two fingers]

Nobody likes awful bands.... what are you getting at?

My problem is with hack bands. My problem is with musicians who think that being on stage is some sort of birthright. No effort needed. No TALENT needed. No need to bother with dressing like something other than the landscaping crew or a retiree out for a stroll on the boardwalk. No need to actually get GOOD at playing, singing, harmonizing.

If you can play like a mix between BB King and Satriani, by all means, do it for next to nothing.

But if the ONLY reason you are up on stage is to fulfill some sort if ego trip and be the coolest guy in the room ..... all the while sucking horribly..... (I'll say it again) keep your butt in the garage where you belong.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

My problem is with hack bands. My problem is with musicians who think that being on stage is some sort of birthright. No effort needed. No TALENT needed. No need to bother with dressing like something other than the landscaping crew or a retiree out for a stroll on the boardwalk. No need to actually get GOOD at playing, singing, harmonizing.

If you can play like a mix between BB King and Satriani, by all means, do it for next to nothing.

But if the ONLY reason you are up on stage is to fulfill some sort if ego trip and be the coolest guy in the room ..... all the while sucking horribly..... (I'll say it again) keep your butt in the garage where you belong.

That's exactly the place for those people. Real talent is going to be on the road or in the studio.

 

[two fingers]

Garage Bands are definitely the reason why I can’t make money as a Harpsichordist anymore.

Or maybe it’s just because times, technology, and business changes.

But I’m bitter, and emotionally it satisfies me to blame someone. Rather than come to the realization that I haven’t modernized my business to keep up with the current.

*sigh*

I'm not really in a business. I don't need a dime from music. In fact, I blow more on gear than I ever make these days.

Thus, I'm not "bitter" because I can't "make a living" playing music.



That doesn't change the point.

Live music venues (in MY area) are drying up because most local bands suck.

Just because you can manage to sucker your 35 closest friends and coworkers into coming out to see you, that doesn't mean you aren't hurting things in the long run by being a horrible $300 band.

If your band isn't horrible, I'm not talking to you. But, almost every $300 band I've ever seen/heard, THOUGHT they were amazing. Oh they are anything but.

 

[3Liter]

But if the ONLY reason you are up on stage is to fulfill some sort if ego trip and be the coolest guy in the room ..... all the while sucking horribly..... (I'll say it again) keep your butt in the garage where you belong.

Last week i started a thread about my garage band needing some work to be better....the advice there was to book some gigs as it would focus us. So which is it?


I’m not sure what a "club" is because in VA, most venues are restaurants because of the liquor laws. Some have a little stage for bands. We have theaters where touring bands will play...like tribute bands or 90s bands on the backside of their careers. Also, a few bigger venues like a brewery with a big stage and a bowling alley "entertainment complex" than has better local bands. (That’s paid us $600, about $575 more than that band was worth).

Anyhow, one restaurant I have gone to see some of the better local bands would run DJ style music during the bands 25 min breaks. That’s when you’d see dance floor packed with the horny suburban MILFs.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

Not that I’m out there working for $20 a gig, but I’m not so sure I’m on board with your post in it’s entirety.

There are gigs, and there are gigs. The big bar gigs we used to play back in the day, 60s-70’s-and 80s, are gone for good. DUI enforcement, as well as streaming music providing unlimited free music playing songs you actually want to hear played exactly the way you want to hear it from a phone has basically eliminated the need for live entertainment.

Further, there is an underlying cautionary tale of economics here. #1 from a business perspective, the establishment needs to make a profit, and with every club owner I’ve ever met in the last 50 years, more is better.

Of course, no big surprise here. But let me ask you, what are you going to provide that will increase his bottom line? Are you prepared to increase his bottom line to the point where he has no choice buy to hire you? If so, please explain your plan because there are a whole lot of members here that are looking for that solution, including me.

What you are suggesting, forcing Mr. Club owner to increase compensation through the principle of supply and demand just is not going to work, mainly because what you are offering can be had for basically free. No, it’s not the garage band eating into you business model. The truth is you really don’t have relevant product to sell.

Now let’s talk about the end consumer, Mr Patron. First of all, you do realize that around 60 percent of people can’t tell on note from another? Like they say, a nod is as good as a wink to blind horse. About 30% can tell something is “off” but can’t quite pinpoint it, leaving the remaining 10% that can recall two days later, “you know on the third verse of Proud Mary, the bassist lost the pocket”. So forget about wowing them with you talent, unless you are playing something very familiar, and pretty close to the original composition.

So what is in it for Mr/Ms Patron, risking a DUI to hook up, or if they don’t drink, how does that effect Mr Club owner’s bottom line? Frankly, if I was in the market for a hook up, I’d be in a Starbucks or some grocery store, anywhere but a bar.

Next we have the corporate event/ wedding bands. The fact is corporate event budgets have shrunk dramatically in the last 20 years, and at the same time the cost of a wedding has skyrocketed. In both cases, the axe fell on live music, the easiest thing to cut and not surprisingly, this void filled by DJs. No, you aren’t going to find garage band doing these gigs.

Anyway, this is just my 2 cents. The bottom line, a band is business and needs to be handled as such. And like any other business, you’d better understand your market, and your how to sell your product. If you sell services to a business, you’d better be either making that business money, or saving them money. If you can’t do that, you are not worth it.

If you are selling to the corporate event/ wedding market, you’d best be playing very commercial covers with as much glitz as you can muster, or starve.

Take care.

 

[two fingers]

Last week i started a thread about my garage band needing some work to be better....the advice there was to book some gigs as it would focus us. So which is it?


I’m not sure what a "club" is because in VA, most venues are restaurants because of the liquor laws. Some have a little stage for bands. We have theaters where touring bands will play...like tribute bands or 90s bands on the backside of their careers. Also, a few bigger venues like a brewery with a big stage and a bowling alley "entertainment complex" than has better local bands. (That’s paid us $600, about $575 more than that band was worth).

Anyhow, one restaurant I have gone to see some of the better local bands would run DJ style music during the bands 25 min breaks. That’s when you’d see dance floor packed with the horny suburban MILFs.

The advice still stands.....IF getting a gig on the calendar forces the members to PRACTICE AT HOME AND ACTUALLY GET GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY IN FRONT OF PEOPLE.

If individual members of your band suck, but don't KNOW they suck, there's no fixing that. If they are so lazy that they KNOW they are doing watered down versions of songs, and they're OK with that, there's no fixing that either.

 

[BAG]

My problem is with hack bands. My problem is with musicians who think that being on stage is some sort of birthright. No effort needed. No TALENT needed. No need to bother with dressing like something other than the landscaping crew or a retiree out for a stroll on the boardwalk. No need to actually get GOOD at playing, singing, harmonizing.

If you can play like a mix between BB King and Satriani, by all means, do it for next to nothing.

But if the ONLY reason you are up on stage is to fulfill some sort if ego trip and be the coolest guy in the room ..... all the while sucking horribly..... (I'll say it again) keep your butt in the garage where you belong.

I agree with most of this. Any solo's, duo's or bands that play any venue I've managed have quickly found that I have standards that I expect of my acts as to dress, behavior, volume etc. Minor issues and i'll ask you to fix it for next time. Major issues or repeat issue and you'll not be coming back. There are plenty who will do the gig at the same price and better quality.

When i gig I might look a bit scruffy while setting up in shorts and a crappy t-shirt but i'll change into some decent jeans and appropriate shirt for the gig.

you do realize that around 60 percent of people can’t tell on note from another?

And this is the truth. I've lost count of the number of times people have said to me "you should get this act, they're fantastic", and they turn out to be very mediocre or worse..... but.... if they pull a decent crowd that likes their stuff they'll probably get another gig.... if they don't pull extra punters they'll not get a repeat invite.

 

[And I]

I would sell all my gear and quit before I joined a "band union".

Congrats you're the 1,000,000th person who offered a knee-jerk reaction and didn't realize I wasn't suggesting this as a real idea, only using it as an example of why the OP needs to rethink the "just turn down low paying gigs" plan.

 

[TheReceder]

Two fingers. Good thread. Drew out some strong opinions, and may have educated a few people on how a lot of musicians feel. (From multiple perspectives)

I'm curious how many pages it'll get to by tomorrow night.

 

[two fingers]

Two fingers. Good thread. Drew out some strong opinions, and may have educated a few people on how a lot of musicians feel. (From multiple perspectives)

I'm curious how many pages it'll get to by tomorrow night.

Curious indeed.

 

[ashtray]

How can a DJ not be able to play a party for $200-300?? It’s one guy with some gear. It’s not 5 people each with a stack of gear to buy/maintain with that $200 getting split 5 ways.

$200 for a few hours of work is decent pay. $40 for a few hours is not good pay.

 

[Hambone70]

How can a DJ not be able to play a party for $200-300?? It’s one guy with some gear. It’s not 5 people each with a stack of gear to buy/maintain with that $200 getting split 5 ways.

$200 for a few hours of work is decent pay. $40 for a few hours is not good pay.

As a DJ, 4+ hr setup, 2+ hr breakdown, $30K for PA, lighting, projectors, screens, cameras, song library. Video, lighting and graphic prep, pre-event consultation and meetings, post-event DVD creation. I certainly wouldn't have done that for $200-300.

 

[ashtray]

As a DJ, 4+ hr setup, 2+ hr breakdown, $30K for PA, lighting, projectors, screens, cameras, song library. Video and graphic prep, pre-event consultation and meetings, post-event DVD creation. I certainly wouldn't have done that for $200-300.

We gotta talk apples to apples. Your setup sounds more akin to comparing not to a hack band, but rather a stadium band. Hack bands aren’t replacing a DJ with video and graphics presentation, dvd creation, etc.