CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[juancaminos]

A little off point, but then again...When I was playing music in California in the 70's Union rate was somewhere around $35 for a four hour gig. That's what you could expect, it didn't matter if your were in the union or not. The musicians union was so intreanched in Southern California that it drove the price/wage FOR EVERYONE with few exceptions. I moved to Arizona in 1977 and found that not to be the case, thank my luck stars!

So...What is Union rate for a four hour gig right now?

 

[Hambone70]

We gotta talk apples to apples. Your setup sounds more akin to comparing not to a hack band, but rather a stadium band. Hack bands aren’t replacing a DJ with video and graphics presentation, dvd creation, etc.

True, but even a hack band, once reaching a certain level of musical proficiency, stage presence and professionalism, could increase their marketability with quality sound, lights, and even video. The technology is there, and has never been cheaper or easier to use.

 

[juancaminos]

Simple bottom line is this clubs only care about selling drinks and maybe food, and if that garage band can draw a good crowd of people drinking and eating the club owner, doesn't care if your bass is missing a few strings as long as the cash draw has profit at the end of the night period. You can be Chris Squire reincarnated if you can't put warm bodies in the place you will be replaced by the garage band that can.

Exactly THIS

 

[richntiff]

How’s everybody doing? We all good? Can I get anyone anything? A beer? Pizza? Bourbon?

No? Ok. Cool.

Carry on. But remember - music and making music and performing and all that - it’s supposed to be fun. Joyous even.

(Steps down off soapbox)

A few observations.

1) OP isn't talking about bands playing for $300 - $400 because they enjoy playing for the fun of it and don't care about the money. He's talking about a 4 piece band playing for a jar of tip money and only doing so because they believe that they don't have the leverage to ask for more in the current working environment.

2) I've learned that the bands that I've been in the past few decades do get paid fairly well because I insist on being in a band that acts and performs professionally. Some "amateur hour" group of hacks playing for tip money has no effect whatsoever on what my band gets paid. We're playing at a higher level than that and those guys aren't competing with us. When we book gigs, it's always with venues who are fully aware that we have the ability to draw a crowd that will stay and drink until closing and that's worth the price we demand.

3) What's changed the most is the rapid increase in the number of garage bands in the past several years. It used to be a requirement that anyone who wanted to become a musician had to put up some serious money to buy a guitar or bass and an amp or drums and then find someone who is willing to let them jam at full volume in their house or else rent a studio. Now, a couple hundred bucks gets you a decent entry level package and many beginning bands are using IEM's and electronic drums so the cost is much less and they can practice in silence in their living rooms.

4) Competition is part of the free market. Most bands who are getting paid little more than gas money for a gig are typically not worth more than that. If your band wants to get paid enough to make it worth your while, then you should make sure your band is good enough to demand decent pay. The bottom line is, better bands make more money.

This is a spot on post. Like it or not.

 

[de@n]

Oh...we do pay for that free stuff...

 

[bass.slinger]

Simple bottom line is this clubs only care about selling drinks and maybe food, and if that garage band can draw a good crowd of people drinking and eating the club owner, doesn't care if your bass is missing a few strings as long as the cash draw has profit at the end of the night period. You can be Chris Squire reincarnated if you can't put warm bodies in the place you will be replaced by the garage band that can.

Drinking and eating the club owner? What bars do you play at?!?!

 

[bigboy_78]

Last week i started a thread about my garage band needing some work to be better....the advice there was to book some gigs as it would focus us. So which is it? .

Bands need to play out to get better at playing out, even if they have to play for free. If your band isn’t real good, it isn’t really stealing gigs from the better bands. My band was complaining that a pub we used to play at won’t pay us the $1000+ we are getting now at other venues. They were blaming other bands for playing for peanuts. We used to play that same pub for $500. The cheap bands aren’t stealing our gigs, the cheaper bands are playing the cheap gigs that we won’t take anymore.

Anyhow, one restaurant I have gone to see some of the better local bands would run DJ style music during the bands 25 min breaks. That’s when you’d see dance floor packed with the horny suburban MILFs.

We play dance covers live and then plays dance tracks that a band can’t cover in the breaks (or the phone does, what even is a DJ these days) our dancefloors are always packed with suburban MILFs.

 

[okcrum]

Do the club owners LIKE awful bands?

In many cases, I don't think the quality of the band or DJ matters that much to the owner of the little dive on the corner. Ths carries over into some of the bigger rooms, too, at least out here in the hinterlands. If they're only grossing $1500 on a good night, they like a band that costs $100 (or a few free drinks plus tips) lots better than a DJ or band that costs $400-500 as long as it doesn't hurt their bottom line. If the latter type of band grosses them $2500, then they'll hire the more expensive entertainment. It's just economics to them.

 

[JRA]

if you're in this thread thinking that bands of "hacks" are screwing you out of your 'potential' =

 

[alaskaleftybass]

In a perfect world............

 

[Outbush]

I’d be happy now just to play charity gigs but the band has fractured and may be a while to reform and there are only a few musos in town. Plus I like playing with my band. There is no money here but 100ks away i used to get $250 a gig. The money is gone-even out that way so I take what I can get and enjoy it when it comes! Tough times but I just want to play.

 

[Torrente Cro]

Oh...we do pay for that free stuff...

I know, I edited my first post to stay politically correct

 

[Outbush]

P.S. this is interesting and relevant (and non-partisan). A new world order in the making?

 

[hbarcat]

Let's put this in a historical perspective. In every free country in the world, where there is a native population of working class folks, there has always been resentment of the "newcomers" who are accused of taking their good jobs.

Economically, this is an irrational fear. The late arrivals typically work the jobs that the established workers aren't interested in. Think about it. If someone is scrubbing toilets for half of minimum wage and you're worried that he's harming your job prospects, then it seems plausible you might benefit from a reevaluation of your job skills.

 

[cnltb]

'We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death.'

Indeed.
There's nothing crazy about it at all!
People need to charge for the work they do. If they don't they are harming everyone.

 

[Sparkl]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

Thank you!! Too bad we are on the opposite side of the pond but still - I have been saying this for years despite my young age of 27.

But guess what. Nobody gives a single poop. I can't even begin to grasp this cosmic idea of not willing to organise yourself for higher profits and even worse, almost intentionally dumping the whole scene.

Sometimes it really feels like we musicians are mostly IQ85 people...

 

[SteveCS]

Thank you!! Too bad we are on the opposite side of the pond but still - I have been saying this for years despite my young age of 27.

But guess what. Nobody gives a single poop. I can't even begin to grasp this cosmic idea of not willing to organise yourself for higher profits and even worse, almost intentionally dumping the whole scene.

Sometimes it really feels like we musicians are mostly IQ85 people...

What you and @two fingers are suggesting sounds rather like a cartel. Last time I checked these were illegal in the UK and the US...

 

[BassAndReeds]

*sigh*

I'm not really in a business. I don't need a dime from music. In fact, I blow more on gear than I ever make these days.

Thus, I'm not "bitter" because I can't "make a living" playing music.



That doesn't change the point.

Live music venues (in MY area) are drying up because most local bands suck.

Just because you can manage to sucker your 35 closest friends and coworkers into coming out to see you, that doesn't mean you aren't hurting things in the long run by being a horrible $300 band.

If your band isn't horrible, I'm not talking to you. But, almost every $300 band I've ever seen/heard, THOUGHT they were amazing. Oh they are anything but.

For the record, I’m not calling you directly bitter. I don’t know you well enough to pass judgement on your person. I was using hyperbole to make a point.

In my area, my one Top 40 band is finding plenty of $800 gigs. And I consider that a bit low, cause agency bands are making much more. Then there’s the wedding circuit, which isn’t hurting for money either. That band doesn’t do many, but makes $2,500 when we do. And that’s low considering agency bands get $8,000 or more. But they have to pay their agency, and we don’t. So our take home is very near the same as theirs. Sometimes a little more. Sometimes a little less. And certainly $300 bands are not taking my $800 gigs. They couldn’t hang. But there are a good number of $800 bands in my area. And still we work enough for me to enjoy our times off.

I don’t know what choices your DJ friend made in his career. I don’t know his current market. But I do think he’s blaming the wrong people/person.

“Live music is drying up because most local bands suck”.
^I don’t know your area well enough, but I’ve heard this type of statement many times before. And in my honest yet somewhat ignorant opinion, I can help but feel this statement is short-sighted.

 

[Sparkl]

What you and @two fingers are suggesting sounds rather like a cartel. Last time I checked these were illegal in the UK and the US...

Not really. Take a mechanic for example. They know their worth damn well and you will basically never see a mechanic (at least in europe for sure) repairing cars basically for free for everybody just because he loves fiddling with cars. Or at least it is not an obvious case of price dumping as it is in the world of music where you will see plenty of bands doing gigs for two beers.

There is a big difference between a cartel (organised crime) and organised profession, which being a musician should be, at least from todays world perspective. Bills need to be paid you know. I'm not asking for more.

 

[SteveCS]

Not really. Take a mechanic for example. They know their worth damn well and you will basically never see a mechanic (at least in europe for sure) repairing cars basically for free for everybody just because he loves fiddling with cars. Or at least it is not an obvious case of price dumping as it is in the world of music where you will see plenty of bands doing gigs for two beers.

There is a big difference between a cartel (organised crime) and organised profession, which being a musician should be, at least from todays world perspective. Bills need to be paid you know. I'm not asking for more.

It wasn't the bit about getting paid, it was the suggestion that if you don't join in you can't or shouldn't be playing anywhere other than your own basement...