The difference here is that it's not even the same product in most cases. But the perception among those selling it is that it is.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night
- Thread starter two fingers
- Start date
The difference here is that it's not even the same product in most cases. But the perception among those selling it is that it is.
I guess the missing part of the equation is people are not necessarily playing to make money. At first, most people seek out performance opportunities because they love it. They may be a bit disillusioned that they could make money performing down the line. Since they love performing, any additional compensation seems like a good idea, so when they are offered $50 for a gig..."Sure that sounds awesome!" Unfortunately they don't realize it's a trap.
Motivation is a weird thing, and paying someone to do something they love is a fairly reliable way of turning their love to hate. Once that happens, $50 for a gig sounds like a lot of hard work for very little compensation. Unfortunately there is always the next wave of musicians coming up who are excited to perform just because they can, so it's a never ending cycle.
IMHO, The sensible course would be to pursue other forms of employment and hold music as an unpaid hobby. Then perhaps one's love of music could last for a life time.
With Herzberg's motivation hygiene theory, the sense of joy and accomplishment we get from performing is a motivation factor that feeds our love of music. Money is a hygiene factor...you need a minimum amount of compensation or your motivation will decrease. The idea is you can't really motivate people with more money, but you can demotivate them by paying them too little. Sure people will work for more money, but that doesn't mean they will enjoy the work.
Additionally, love of music is an intrinsic motivator, while money is an extrinsic motivator. It is claimed that the use of extrinsic motivators may reduce or destroy the effectiveness of intrinsic motivators. Thus paying someone to perform, may degrade their love of music.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
In my long-term experience as a pro musician I observed many peers who eventually came to hate pretty much every aspect of the job. You would probably be surprised by the number of highly trained musicians who put down their instruments mid-life and never touch them again. Although I have lots of basses and gear, I have very little interest in performing or putting up with the typical interpersonal BS you deal with in musical environments.
You're making the issue too big.
McDonald's does cost the Angus Barn (incredible burgers) locally.
City league footballs takes athletes out of school athletics and vice versa.
The issue is more local.
Good musicians, who play what they like, for people who like what they play, regardless of pay, don't need smarmy "PROS" insulting our skills and our values, while they sell out playing whatever they think will make them the most money. If they can't pay the rent, maybe it's because they aren't as good as they THINK they are?
I also have to wonder....before you got to be as good and as professional as you are, how many gigs did YOU play for free/cheap to get the experience that made you who you THINK you are?
If you want to be paid X dollars, you have to provide a service that people are willing to pay X dollars for. It's your responsibility to figure out what that means, and develop your market. Blaming someone else that is willing to play for the love of the craft isn't the solution.
Self-indulgent perhaps, but I suspect bad bands are generally unaware of being bad and their focus is on having a good time rather than screwing @two fingers .
I do agree that there are plenty of seasoned pro (bottom feeders) out there putting out really sub-standard musical services. An odd observation is audiences often prefer crappy bands to really good bands (IMHO). So your opinion and my opinion really doesn't matter. If the bar patrons are happy and the bar owner is happy, it doesn't matter if we think the band sucks.
I wasn’t criticizing you personally. Hope it didn’t come across as such.
My point was that your position isn’t unique, even if it’s not the same as mine. Your position is probably the same as that of 85-90% of those who are out there playing. So suggesting some sort of solidarity (and what a wonderful world it would be if there were some) is pretty much a moot point already.
But to your point - there are indeed very different goals in play, along with strategies to obtain them.
To your credit you were candid enough to come right out and say it.
There is so much competition out there for gigs: Karaoke, trivia, televised sports. I've had bar customers get seriously PO'd because we were setting up to play and they'd rather watch the basketball game. I think the allure of live music just isn't there for millennials. I still get excited when I go somewhere and hear live music, but I think us musicians are in the minority.
Simple bottom line is this clubs only care about selling drinks and maybe food, and if that garage band can draw a good crowd of people drinking and eating the club owner, doesn't care if your bass is missing a few strings as long as the cash draw has profit at the end of the night period. You can be Chris Squire reincarnated if you can't put warm bodies in the place you will be replaced by the garage band that can.
Thanks. It’s all good.
It doesn't work that way. Rock club owners have issues with even keeping the restrooms clean, much less functional. I think they have stock in companies that make silicone; they use it to fix everything.
Never underestimate the stupidity, greed and miserliness of the club owner. They are a breed apart.
Yep. That’s one reason why so many people have money problems these days. They never learned about it young enough to actually understand how money works and make it work for them rather than the other way around.
There’s a high price to pay for willful blindness and pointless middle class taboos IMO. Money is just a tool. It gets bought, sold, and used just like any other tool. Only difference is some folks get taught how to use it early and effectively while the rest just muddle through and learning by trial and error.
Last edited:
Give me a break. The venues that max out at $300-500 will NEVER pay more. The bartender can plug in her iPod for free and the customers couldn't care less. If the money part of being a musician is that important, why would anyone waste their time slumming it at these kinds of places? At least where I live, the only cats making decent money only play wedding and events. And that's not "make a living" money, that's on top of teaching full time and running a half dozen other side hustles to get by.
I got a question: How big an audience for how many American dollars?
It seems to me that there should be dollars per customer relationship and not a dollars per gig relationship. More customers = more mooola.........at the local level.
It seems to me that there should be dollars per customer relationship and not a dollars per gig relationship. More customers = more mooola.........at the local level.
and then hands were wrung, pearls were clutched and much keyboard rage ensued.
The reasons I am semi retired from cover and originals bands:
- Everybody is in a band
- Most bands are TERRIBLE
- People will play for free? asked and answered long ago. Heard of Pay to Play?
- There is no stage. Put on a ROCK AND ROLL show from behind the tables we are not using
- See that janitor? He's a lot more important to this establishment than any musician ever will be
- $100 a man is considered adequate pay for schlepping gear, playing three hours and basically come to a lot less than I get paid at my job
- Everybody drinks at most clubs
- Sound men are mostly not qualified
That's because we don't provide a product, we provide a service (entertainment). Music is only a product when it is recorded, printed, or published.The difference here is that it's not even the same product in most cases. But the perception among those selling it is that it is.
No, my phone is hurting DJs AND live bands.
Why would I want to pay some cheese ball DJ to do the exact same thing that I can do with a smart phone and my stereo? Plus, I get to hear the music I want to hear.
As for a live band, there is no way on gods green earth that one live band can have a repertoire anywhere near what would interest me.
I've been to weddings, events, parties etc where some had DJs and some had live bands. I've never cared for either.
Why would I want to pay some cheese ball DJ to do the exact same thing that I can do with a smart phone and my stereo? Plus, I get to hear the music I want to hear.
As for a live band, there is no way on gods green earth that one live band can have a repertoire anywhere near what would interest me.
I've been to weddings, events, parties etc where some had DJs and some had live bands. I've never cared for either.
