CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Supply and demand. As for demand for gigging musicians in my rural area, a band is lucky to get $75 from the venue owner. Maybe the band can get another $50 in tips. Usually less. I don't know what a DJ would make but it's probably in the same ballpark. That has nothing to do with supply. There's plenty of supply here, lots of good players. Most of them don't bother to gig anymore. Fewer venues, etc. etc. I like to play and have turned to recording, videography and the internet for that release. No money there either, unfortunately. Such is the state of music in the sticks.

 

[Ellery]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

Why should I care how my actions affect you or anyone else? Maybe playing in a band is something I enjoy, and playing a gig that doesn't even pay enough to cover my expenses is more than enough for a fun night? In the profession in which I make my living, my REAL job, I have been seriously affected by internet sites taking away my business selling lower quality products and services for rock bottom prices. Folks will happily concede to low quality just to save a few bucks. I wish I could tell them to stop, to band together and do the "right thing", but that won't happen. I have to deal with the fact that the business model I'm operating in is becoming outdated, and it's not the fault of the consumer or the competitor... it is up to me to catch up. Perhaps your DJ friend needs to face the fact that he's not as good as he thinks and his relevance is waning, rather than blame everybody else!

 

[Anachronism]

All you folks saying it is what it is, get used to it: be aware that this is the same mindset that kept people working back-breaking 60-hour weeks for peanuts until the Great Depression showed everyone that what's good for the bosses ain't necessarily what's good for workers. The result was unions and a large, secure middle class.

Citation needed.

 

[petrus61]

There’s what people claim to get paid for playing and then there’s the reality. A three piece band of just about any caliber would never see stage time in my neck of the woods if they refused to work for anything less than $400, and there is some very competition out there. My position on this has evolved over time and in my opinion boils down to the quality of the band. I think it’s more than coincidental that the hacks playing for beer and wings are also the same bands driving people out of bars with their over the top volume and simplified versions of Skynard songs. I don’t think it’s necessarily that people should be asking for more money so much as there are just way too many crappy bands willing to work for peanuts. The real players will set the market price. There just has to be real players in the market.

 

[Knavery]

I didn't start playing music for the money. I understand the OP's concern, but this is an issue in pretty much every industry. I don't think people are going to stop playing in front of crowds just to drive up the cost of doing so. That's not realistic.

 

[MobileHolmes]

$300 would be good money for a brewery/coffeehouse gig in my neck of the woods. I'm not sure what bars are paying these days as I have no interest in doing those.

Yeah, around here 300 is slightly above average for a bar gig, lots of bands (and some pretty good ones) and not enough venues to really compete for the talent, though things are expanding a bit.

 

[Greyvagabond]

Tell that to all the bars in Boston that have been paying $150 for a band (regardless of size) for the last 35 years. I don't know what kind of music and venues people play to get $200 or more a man on a regular basis, but near Boston it sure isn't playing in bars.

Gotta get some of that good Traditional Irish Band money. That's the only thing that sells in Boston.

 

[rd2rk]

All you folks saying it is what it is, get used to it: be aware that this is the same mindset that kept people working back-breaking 60-hour weeks for peanuts until the Great Depression showed everyone that what's good for the bosses ain't necessarily what's good for workers. The result was unions and a large, secure middle class.

If there was a working union in my area serious about making things happen, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. But it's been many decades since the Musician's Union (former member here) did any real investing in building quality markets. So now, outside a few urban-hipster areas, most of us are competing in markets that just don't care, and any extra effort we put in beyond playing the hits like the record and wearing reasonably clean cargo shorts is dead cost. This is where "get used to it" leads.

There's so much wrong with this. A few posts back, someone mentioned Adam Smith. He's mostly remembered for writing "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations", which describes the theory and mechanics of capitalism. It's been said (I forget by who) that "The problem with socialism is socialism. The problem with capitalism is capitalists." Adam Smith also wrote a companion volume to his more famous work, called "The Theory of Moral Sentiments" which he said was essential to a true understanding of why capitalism was the best economic system. In short and summary, socialism fails because it is antithetical to human nature. We don't do our best work for the benefit of anonymous strangers, we do it for ourselves and our loved ones. In "The Theory of Moral Sentiments", Smith explains that while that is true, it is also true that to ignore the needs of anonymous strangers is not necessarily in our own best interests. Capitalism without morality is as evil as communism, Nazism, or any other soulless ism.

What I'm getting at by all of that is that, the only moral justification for unions is to protect the health and safety of workers from the depredations of immoral capitalists. The amount of pay and benefits for services rendered is a matter to be decided between provider and purchaser, subject to free market forces (supply and demand). When unions negotiate health and safety issues, that's the working class defending itself. When unions make wage and benefit demands, that's called "extortion". The decline of unionism in America is directly the result of unions and union members' failure to understand that. The decline of the once "secure" middle class is the inevitable result.

Lastly, as I mentioned a few posts ago, I grew up in NYC. UNIONS are just another income stream for organized crime. That was (in the 50s and 60s at least) the primary function of the Musicians Union. If a club didn't make it's payments to the local crime boss, it didn't have live music. If a union rep walked in on a club employing a non-union band, a simple payment made it right. And that money DID NOT go to the underpaid
non-union band. And it was NEVER the case that the Musician's Union, or ANY union, invested heavily in "building quality markets".

 

[Greyvagabond]

Citation needed.

Do you like weekends? Healthcare? Health and safety requirements? 40 hour work weeks? Overtime and break protection? Thanks the unions!

Do you like working on Sundays? Being bankrupt because you broke a leg workin in an unsafe site for 65 hours a weeks with no overtime and no breaks? Thank you boss and the shareholders!

 

[lermgalieu]

"Crazy" is right

 

[MobileHolmes]

I don’t think the AFM has much clout anywhere anymore. I was a member 25 years ago, but the only union gigs were musical theater (which I did a bit of). I think it was 20 bucks a rehearsal and 30 a performance give or take

 

[Brad Johnson]

Good musicians, who play what they like, for people who like what they play, regardless of pay, don't need smarmy "PROS" insulting our skills and our values, while they sell out playing whatever they think will make them the most money. If they can't pay the rent, maybe it's because they aren't as good as they THINK they are?

I also have to wonder....before you got to be as good and as professional as you are, how many gigs did YOU play for free/cheap to get the experience that made you who you THINK you are?

Why be insulted?

 

[Remoman]

Here's another take for you. Lots of restaurants and bars are owned by small business people. Small business owners are very often extremely narrow minded and short sighted about making money vs saving money. Saving money is what matters, somehow making more money is secondary to them. So a better band with a bigger draw isn't as important as getting by with a much cheaper source of entertainment. Once in a while, sure, but on a regular basis, you'll regularly hear "I can't afford that". Regardless of how good it is for the business.

And heaven help you if your gig night has bad weather and a good game on TV. You're cut for sure, 'cause you can't bring them in/keep them coming in.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

We were playing a bunch of terrible paying gigs last year. Over winter we said screw it and agreed that we can just get together and write music, record it and post videos and stuff online and play byob backyard parties here and there instead of losing money by not making enough to cover gas, food and strings while the bar does make money. Funny thing is a couple months go by and now more than half the shows we have booked have pretty nice guarantees. We even have a guarantee for a national show that most bands would be required to buy on to or sell tickets for. It very much is venues taking advantage because so many bands are so desperate to get gigs that they let venues and promoters walk all over them.

 

[Hambone70]

Did the corporate/wedding DJ thing for a while. Charged $2000+, and had plenty of work. How? Awesome sound system tuned to each venue, giant projector screens with custom-made graphics and videos, live remote pan/tilt/zoom cameras feeding live dance floor video, fully choreographed and sequenced lighting, crowd could text to the big screens, recorded all video/audio and supplied an edited DVD of the evening. Was it hard work? You bet! And stressful with everything that could (and sometimes did) go wrong.

Perhaps bands (and DJs) could add a few unique elements to set them above the bottom feeders. Improved sound quality (read appropriate volume and hi-fidelity mix for the venue/type of event) for one. Modern digital PA is relatively inexpensive, quick to set up, and easy to operate. DMX LED lighting has never been cheaper or easier, and can add a tremendous dramatic effect if used well. There are lots of ideas.

Create the demand.

 

[707GK]

Here in California, where musicians and DJs are plentiful, demanding any kind of pay is a good way to get laughed right out of the door unless you are a cover band with 3+ hours of music or a band that can guarantee a large crowd.

I play music for fun and will continue to, and taking gigs for low to no pay is something I’ll continue to do as well. If you’re in a band that’s good enough and you can demand a certain fee and you get a gig instead of my band, more power to you. Until you’re at that level, good luck.

 

[guy n. cognito]

Why should I care how my actions affect you or anyone else? Maybe playing in a band is something I enjoy, and playing a gig that doesn't even pay enough to cover my expenses is more than enough for a fun night? In the profession in which I make my living, my REAL job, I have been seriously affected by internet sites taking away my business selling lower quality products and services for rock bottom prices. Folks will happily concede to low quality just to save a few bucks. I wish I could tell them to stop, to band together and do the "right thing", but that won't happen. I have to deal with the fact that the business model I'm operating in is becoming outdated, and it's not the fault of the consumer or the competitor... it is up to me to catch up. Perhaps your DJ friend needs to face the fact that he's not as good as he thinks and his relevance is waning, rather than blame everybody else!

Lol.....

 

[Brad Johnson]

I got a question: How big an audience for how many American dollars?

It seems to me that there should be dollars per customer relationship and not a dollars per gig relationship. More customers = more mooola.........at the local level.

If the venue is charging by the head. The bigger paying gigs that I do aren't based on a head count. In fact I did a gig in the backyard of a house in Bethesda that had maybe sixty guests. The budget was over $400k. They erected a large enclosed structure with IIRC a 15x60 ft video wall across the back for changing scenery. There may have been more waitstaff than guests. The waitstaff had makeup artists.

We did a sub-1 hour set with a Vegas headliner, the band emerged on a stage hidden in one of the walls. Did the set, disappeared back into the wall.

 

[Anachronism]

Do you like weekends? Healthcare? Health and safety requirements? 40 hour work weeks? Overtime and break protection? Thanks the unions!

Do you like working on Sundays? Being bankrupt because you broke a leg workin in an unsafe site for 65 hours a weeks with no overtime and no breaks? Thank you boss and the shareholders!

Not sure if serious...

 

[guy n. cognito]

All you folks saying it is what it is, get used to it: be aware that this is the same mindset that kept people working back-breaking 60-hour weeks for peanuts until the Great Depression showed everyone that what's good for the bosses ain't necessarily what's good for workers. The result was unions and a large, secure middle class.

If there was a working union in my area serious about making things happen, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. But it's been many decades since the Musician's Union (former member here) did any real investing in building quality markets. So now, outside a few urban-hipster areas, most of us are competing in markets that just don't care, and any extra effort we put in beyond playing the hits like the record and wearing reasonably clean cargo shorts is dead cost. This is where "get used to it" leads.

It didn’t take long for someone to suggest that unionization could fix this....