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CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

Not really.
Most venues these days, at least in Australia and New Zealand, put on live music because either the owner or manager likes live music themselves, not because they think it will make them any money. In most cases they would make more bottom line profit by not having a band on. I've covered this before here if you want a bit of the venue perspective.

YMMV

On the other side of the planet we have live venue clubs where their clientele expect to see a band at least every Fri and Sat night. Smaller places pay 300-400 (USD) cause that's all they can afford. Larger rooms pay around a grand. People would not come out unless there was a band. I'm sure the clubs would rather play Sirius/XM or a jukebox if they could draw the same crowd.
 
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There are plenty of professional, talented and savvy bands and DJs who make lots of money for what they do here in the UK. There are also lots of mediocre to poor bands and djs who don’t make good money yet expect a right to be paid good money by simply doing it. DJing from your phone via Amazon and Spotify is going to kill your reputation and income. Sort it out.
 
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Not really. Take a mechanic for example. They know their worth damn well and you will basically never see a mechanic (at least in europe for sure) repairing cars basically for free for everybody just because he loves fiddling with cars. Or at least it is not an obvious case of price dumping as it is in the world of music where you will see plenty of bands doing gigs for two beers.

There is a big difference between a cartel (organised crime) and organised profession, which being a musician should be, at least from todays world perspective. Bills need to be paid you know. I'm not asking for more.
It always amuses me when entertainers compare themselves to necessities. I think it shows an over inflated ego of their self worth.

Musicians are not, never have, and never will be as needed, necessary, or useful to society as doctors, mechanics, Cooks, garbage collectors, etc.

Sorry. We’re entertainers. I think we’d all to well to accept that. Sometimes musician egos are the WORST.
 
It always amuses me when entertainers compare themselves to necessities. I think it shows an over inflated ego of their self worth.

Musicians are not, never have, and never will be as needed, necessary, or useful to society as doctors, mechanics, Cooks, garbage collectors, etc.

Sorry. We’re entertainers. I think we’d all to well to accept that. Sometimes musician egos are the WORST.

Agree! It’s obviously possible to set up a hugely successful entertainment business, whether you’re solo, band, label, promoter etc... But there is so much delusion around exactly as you described.
 
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Did the corporate/wedding DJ thing for a while. Charged $2000+, and had plenty of work. How? Awesome sound system tuned to each venue, giant projector screens with custom-made graphics and videos, live remote pan/tilt/zoom cameras feeding live dance floor video, fully choreographed and sequenced lighting, crowd could text to the big screens, recorded all video/audio and supplied an edited DVD of the evening. Was it hard work? You bet! And stressful with everything that could (and sometimes did) go wrong.

Perhaps bands (and DJs) could add a few unique elements to set them above the bottom feeders. Improved sound quality (read appropriate volume and hi-fidelity mix for the venue/type of event) for one. Modern digital PA is relatively inexpensive, quick to set up, and easy to operate. DMX LED lighting has never been cheaper or easier, and can add a tremendous dramatic effect if used well. There are lots of ideas.

Create the demand.

I'm in complete agreement. My band recently added light bars and lit banners to our existing floor lighting and it makes a huge difference. In order to make it as a cover band, you better be good businessmen and have high production value. Nobody cares that you can tap on a 6 string unlined fretless. They want to get hammered and hear what they've heard for decades (for the most part).

Production value and networking beat good playing every day in our modern market.
 
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I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.
Speaking as a guy in a “hack band” happy to play for $100/band member:
1) I’ll do you a favour when you do me a favour. Not sure what kind of favour you can do for me, though.
2) I work in a day job and raise a family, but I’ve been playing since 1982, have half of a music degree, and have played in bands and combos covering the ground between jazz, country, metal, classic rock/pop, and blues. If I can get a gig, I’ll get a gig, I’m not asking your permission unless you’re paying me.
3) I’d play for free so long as I had a good drummer, a good set list, and an audience, and will play for free if I can’t get paid. But in that case I’ll drink more beer and take more breaks. I recognize that nobody is entitled to get gigs. Nobody is entitled to be a full time professional musician. I get gigs at least in part because I know this is true.
4) I have fun jamming in the basement, but that’s not where I’m leaving it, I want gigs, and if I can get gigs, I’ll get gigs. Oops, I said this one already.
5) rural venues like community halls, fire halls, Legions/VA centers, and house parties are always looking for bands to play. I play those places.
6) I also play small pubs where four people can jam themselves plus a drum kit onto a tiny stage and not bitch because there’s no sound guy or lights.
7) The bar and the band both recognize we are there to sell beer. If they’re not turning a profit, they’re not booking bands - or DJs - and there’s no gig, free or otherwise.
8) we can and do get gigs because we play what gets people on the floor and gets them buying beer. We don’t do 18 minute Jazz odysseys or “play what we like.” We are doing Mustang Sally, Brown Eyed Girl, and Honky Tonk Women, and we are making the 45+ year old girls scream and woohoo. It’s a lot of fun, and it’s why I want to play gigs. [EDIT: ok, maybe not literally *scream*, but holler.]
9) if you want more gigs, maybe do an attitude check and see what beliefs and opinions you have that are preventing that from happening. Maybe there are songs you won’t do, venues you won’t play, or people you won’t cater to. Then you can blame your attitude instead of things outside your control.
 
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Speaking as a guy in a “hack band” happy to play for $100/band member:
1) I’ll do you a favour when you do me a favour. Not sure what kind of favour you can do for me, though.
2) I work in a day job and raise a family, but I’ve been playing since 1982, have half of a music degree, and have played in bands and combos covering the ground between jazz, country, metal, classic rock/pop, and blues. If I can get a gig, I’ll get a gig, I’m not asking your permission unless you’re paying me.
3) I’d play for free so long as I had a good drummer, a good set list, and an audience, and will play for free if I can’t get paid. But in that case I’ll drink more beer and take more breaks. I recognize that nobody is entitled to get gigs. Nobody is entitled to be a full time professional musician. I get gigs at least in part because I know this is true.
4) I have fun jamming in the basement, but that’s not where I’m leaving it, I want gigs, and if I can get gigs, I’ll get gigs. Oops, I said this one already.
5) rural venues like community halls, fire halls, Legions/VA centers, and house parties are always looking for bands to play. I play those places.
6) I also play small pubs where four people can jam themselves plus a drum kit onto a tiny stage and not bitch because there’s no sound guy or lights.
7) The bar and the band both recognize we are there to sell beer. If they’re not turning a profit, they’re not booking bands - or DJs - and there’s no gig, free or otherwise.
8) we can and do get gigs because we play what gets people on the floor and gets them buying beer. We don’t do 18 minute Jazz odysseys or “play what we like.” We are doing Mustang Sally, Brown Eyed Girl, and Honky Tonk Women, and we are making the 45+ year old girls scream and woohoo. It’s a lot of fun, and it’s why I want to play gigs.
9) if you want more gigs, maybe do an attitude check and see what beliefs and opinions you have that are preventing that from happening. Maybe there are songs you won’t do, venues you won’t play, or people you won’t cater to. Then you can blame your attitude instead of things outside your control.

I don't want "more" gigs.... and never said I did.

What I want is for awful bands to stay home. What I want is for good bands to charge more. What I want is a rising tide in the local music business. What I want is for the average quality of live music in small bars to go up.

I don't want more gigs. I want better gigs. And I want to see better live music when I go out. Geezers in socks and sandles hacking up simplified versions of same old same olds with horrible production for tips ARE hurting the music scene.... by sucking as much as playing for cheap.
 
I don't want "more" gigs.... and never said I did.

What I want is for awful bands to stay home. What I want is for good bands to charge more. What I want is a rising tide in the local music business. What I want is for the average quality of live music in small bars to go up.

I don't want more gigs. I want better gigs. And I want to see better live music when I go out. Geezers in socks and sandles hacking up simplified versions of same old same olds with horrible production for tips ARE hurting the music scene.... by sucking as much as playing for cheap.

But you’re not providing a better value to the club / bar. How many people come to see your band play versus how many friends come to see geezers in socks and sandals?
 
This, I suppose, this what I'm referring to. It's the delusional crowd that actually thinks their awful band is good, or the crowd that knows they suck "But I wanna play loud under lights to screw you!!!!"

It's pretty self-indulgent at that point.

But whatever.....
Being a musician at all - especially full time professional - is kind of self indulgent. It’s not like you’re putting out fires, doing surgery, or inventing a solution to world hunger, you’re making pretty sounds come out of a box. 99% of the population can’t tell the difference between your pretty sounds and the next bass player’s sounds, and most of them don’t even know there’s a bass player in the room.

But whatever...
 
As a DJ, 4+ hr setup, 2+ hr breakdown, $30K for PA, lighting, projectors, screens, cameras, song library. Video, lighting and graphic prep, pre-event consultation and meetings, post-event DVD creation. I certainly wouldn't have done that for $200-300.

I wonder how many DJs actually pay for the music they play? DJ paying for a personal Spotify account does not count.
 
Musicians are not, never have, and never will be as needed, necessary, or useful to society as doctors, mechanics, Cooks, garbage collectors, etc.

"Making music involves more than the voice or fingers playing an instrument; a child learning about music has to tap into multiple skill sets, often simultaneously. For instance, people use their ears and eyes, as well as large and small muscles, says Kenneth Guilmartin, cofounder of Music Together, an early childhood music development program for infants through kindergarteners that involves parents or caregivers in the classes.

“Music learning supports all learning. Not that Mozart makes you smarter, but it’s a very integrating, stimulating pastime or activity,” Guilmartin says"

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That said, I do believe the very best musicians (not me!) are the hood ornaments of civilization. They may not be necessary, but they class the joint up for the rest of us.:D
 
But you’re not providing a better value to the club / bar. How many people come to see your band play versus how many friends come to see geezers in socks and sandals?

Oh we pack out every time. We're all former members of other popular bands, or current members of popular bands using my band as a side project. The biggest complaint from my friends at shows is that there's nowhere to sit. :D

And I get what I need for gigs.

But I have relationships with those owners.

Trying to get the same rate from new owners is a hassle. The market has been cheapened by awful bands playing for $300. And venues are drying up here. In my view it's because more than half the bands are horrible. And, yes, the owners who hire them are equally to blame.