CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[BassAndReeds]

"Making music involves more than the voice or fingers playing an instrument; a child learning about music has to tap into multiple skill sets, often simultaneously. For instance, people use their ears and eyes, as well as large and small muscles, says Kenneth Guilmartin, cofounder of Music Together, an early childhood music development program for infants through kindergarteners that involves parents or caregivers in the classes.

“Music learning supports all learning. Not that Mozart makes you smarter, but it’s a very integrating, stimulating pastime or activity,” Guilmartin says"

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That said, I do believe the very best musicians (not me!) are the hood ornaments of civilization. They may not be necessary, but they class the joint up for the rest of us.

I think the individual benefit of learning to be a musician is much greater than the societal benefit.

What’s you’ve highlighted is benefits to individuals who learn music. Or who dedicate themselves to any other skill/craft, whether it be painting, dance, sport, etc.

But society doesn’t need music. Just like society doesn’t need video games, sporting events, art galleries, ballets. But we live in a society where we can afford these luxuries. Which is exactly what they are. Luxuries. And it’s a luxury to make money at these luxuries.

You need a car to get to work. Mechanics are necessaries.

A bar doesn’t need a band to sell beer. They just need the beer. The band is a luxury and more a status symbol. Even at $300.

The problem occurs when musicians think they should be treated as important as mechanics. Society knows mechanics are kore valuable. Many musicians don’t.

 

[MtManiac]

Ha! I never said anyone should care. This whole forum is dedicated to sharing opinions that (mostly) nobody cares about.

Who cares if you like flats?

Who cares if you like tort?

Who cares if your Squier plays better than a Fodera?

(Dare I say it) who cares what the best anything for metal is?

Does that stop ANYONE here from sharing his/her opinions?

No.

Me saying "who cares?" to your opinion is not the same as me saying that you care. It's me saying "I don't care about what your opinion of me or my band is." By all means, share away though!!

 

[Bass Jones]

And also time passed and things changed and you got older.

In the 80s bands were complaining about VJ's. In the 70s, bands were complaining about disco. In the 60s bands were complaining about not getting signed or on the radio. In the 50s bands were complaining about TV taking their gigs. In the 40s big bands were complaining about radio taking their gigs. In the 30s, piano and banjo combos were complaining about big bands taking their gigs. Somehow here in 2019 we still have musicians and they still have gigs. Things only change close up. One thing is constant - musicians who think they're entitled to make a living playing music. One other thing too, on second thought - someone else getting the gig instead of the one who believed they were entitled.

Yeah, I have no complaints at all and don't begrudge anyone else a gig. I enjoyed that time and when the band split it was for a number of reasons. I stopped playing but the drummer is still in 3 bands and the singer (now my ex) never stopped performing because they're both excellent and in demand. I, on the other hand, am wanting to get back into it because I believe there are just not enough mediocre bassists out there right now.

 

[jnsnj]

I grew up in NYC. "UNION" is just another word for an additional income stream for organized crime. No, thanks.
I'll play what I WANT to play, for gas money or for nothing, IF I WANT TO! If I have to drive a truck to pay the rent, I'd rather do that than compromise that which I ENJOY doing. PLAYing music. If you'd rather make a JOB out of music, go for it. That's your BUSINESS. If you're as good as you think you are, you'll do just fine.
Just MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS, and don't be minding mine!

To be fair though "live music venue" is often another word for organized crime as well.

 

[BlitzCraig]

I don't think any of us should be writing on this, or any other public forum. We "hacks" should leave that to professional poets and authors. You know, true wordsmiths

 

[Bass Jones]

Doesn't anyone have a strong opinion on this one?

 

[Pbassmanca]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

The number one problem with live music as I see it, is that people really love playing live music. So playing live music is a skilled trade that is in fairly high demand regionally like other trades and occupations, the only difference being that it's apparently so enjoyable that a majority of players will do it for next to nothing when factoring in the actual amount of skill and time involved to do the job. I've often joked that if playing live music were as enjoyable as roughing in plumbing pipes or cleaning out a main sewer line, the price for our work would go through the roof.....So you're completely right, that if bands would stop doing four hour shows till 2 in the morning for $300, and the demand for live music stayed the same, the price would go up, unfortunately given the fact that so many bands will now pay a venue to play there, unless somehow magically all live musicians join an association or Union, at least on a local level, I can't see this happening anytime soon. I will confess to a certain amount of schadenfreude at the idea of DJ's complaining about live bands taking work away from them though.....

 

[Sparkl]

It always amuses me when entertainers compare themselves to necessities. I think it shows an over inflated ego of their self worth.

Musicians are not, never have, and never will be as needed, necessary, or useful to society as doctors, mechanics, Cooks, garbage collectors, etc.

Sorry. We’re entertainers. I think we’d all to well to accept that. Sometimes musician egos are the WORST.

Ok, this might sound a bit offensive, but.

Sorry man, but the poop does this have to do with capitalism? Everything is a necessity unless you don't want it to. Then, we can close this all off.

Actually this amuses ME, how people who are sunday players, and have zero education about the social effect of music and culture in general and its influence on image of a specific country theorise how something is a necessity or isn't. Reminds me of those completely chewed up right-left political party talks. Sure, doctors and stuff are a necessity. All of this couldn't work though if culture didn't develop and we all started behaving a bit more civilised.

Care to explain how society as such developed purely by figuring out "sure, we need a doctor, let's train one"? You are literally just taking out raw stats and completely ignore all the other factors.

I'm sorry again, but these type of comments literally piss me off.

It would do well for some people to actually take their time and read some of the ancient greeks stuff.

 

[P-oddz]

This reminds me of Tim Cook blaming Apple's low sales on the trade war. It couldn't have anything to do with them jacking up their prices.

Maybe the clients don't want to pay top dollar for an old dude to play tunes on his phone.

I stopped reading comments after post #3.

 

[Sparkl]

It wasn't the bit about getting paid, it was the suggestion that if you don't join in you can't or shouldn't be playing anywhere other than your own basement...

Nobody said that you are forced to play anywhere. You could have certain moral standards though and simply say "sorry, but this payment is just too small to justify literally anything I had to invest to make certain project work" and move on. Not simply dump everything to oblivion since you don't give a poop cos you have another daily job to support your hobby. You know, it's about perspectives.

 

[ZAR14]

I'm willing to bet that a start up band from Indiana that loves playing music and wants to play live is not going to give a moments thought about some band in say, Colorado that wants to preach the "Economic Impact" of their decision.
Don't forget some people don't rely on playing music as a source of income and play because its Fun and it brings them Joy...

 

[FunkHead]

Repeat after me. "It's my own fault that I still have to work a day job"

 

[Pbassmanca]

I think the individual benefit of learning to be a musician is much greater than the societal benefit.

What’s you’ve highlighted is benefits to individuals who learn music. Or who dedicate themselves to any other skill/craft, whether it be painting, dance, sport, etc.

But society doesn’t need music. Just like society doesn’t need video games, sporting events, art galleries, ballets. But we live in a society where we can afford these luxuries. Which is exactly what they are. Luxuries. And it’s a luxury to make money at these luxuries.

You need a car to get to work. Mechanics are necessaries.

A bar doesn’t need a band to sell beer. They just need the beer. The band is a luxury and more a status symbol. Even at $300.

The problem occurs when musicians think they should be treated as important as mechanics. Society knows mechanics are kore valuable. Many musicians don’t.

With respect, to your elegantly stated points, I would argue that given the vast scope of art produced by all human cultures going back tens of thousands of years - up until the present day ; that it is an unavoidable fact that artistic expression is a deep human need both on an individual and group level.

 

[SteveCS]

Nobody said that you are forced to play anywhere. You could have certain moral standards though and simply say "sorry, but this payment is just too small to justify literally anything I had to invest to make certain project work" and move on. Not simply dump everything to oblivion since you don't give a poop cos you have another daily job to support your hobby. You know, it's about perspectives.

I'm sorry. Are you agreeing or dissenting? Your previous seemed to be coming from the same place as my posts... I'm not the one looking to keep folks in the basement...

 

[frankie5string]

I thought the number one thing about playing in bars and pubs was that most of the music seemed to be rock music from the last 60 years up until about 10 years ago. Then those coverband members started requiring multiple bypass surgeries, demanding more money, all while having their age catch up to them.

I remember being in my 20s in Toronto seeing that, while there were places I could play, some of the places I really wanted to play were dominated by people at least 20 years older than me. So I was playing mostly corporate parties and hotel gigs, not bars and clubs. Many bars and pubs wouldn't even look at a bunch of 20 year-olds, even if we had been playing for years and knew all the songs they wanted to hear.

Now that I'm 42, those bar and club band people are disappearing faster than I can count (both the musicians, and the clientele) and the younger crowd wants people their age, or closer to their age, to entertain them.

I do way more pub/club shows now than I did back then because of it.

 

[mrcbass]

Doesn't that void the warranty?

DOH! What was I thinking?! - please don't tell the manufacturer that I touched the tuning keys...

 

[Muttleybass]

For the record, I don't play for free, but the gigs are getting fewer. I always get riled up when I see posts like this.

First of all, "hack" bands aren't going away any time soon. There will always be, and always has been, players who will play for cheap or free. Get used to it. They have every right to do so. Who are you to tell someone that they need to stay in the basement?

Second, they are NOT affecting your band at all. all. Venues that hire cheap bands will not hire ANY bands if they have to pay more. Yes they are doing themselves a disservice, but it's their business to screw up.

Third, they are getting exactly what they're paying for. EVERY BAND IS DIFFERENT and most SUCK. The cream always rises and the better bands get paid more because... get this, THEY'RE BETTER. Want more money? Be a better band. Update yer GD set list fer cryin' out loud.

Venues are closing. No smoking laws, drinking driving laws, price of going out is skyrocketing... The older generation that appreciates live music doesn't go out. When they do they don't drink. Younger kids with money would rather stand in line behind a velvet rope to get into a packed dance club and hear nothing but pounding EDM all night. If you would have told me 20 years ago that they would have actual "music" festivals with nothing but computers and laser lights, and DJs getting $3000 - $5000 I would have said you were NUCKING FUTS.

I got into it with a club owner a while ago. He had just quite hiring bands and went to DJs. He started talking numbers. He used to pay $1200 for a five piece band and nobody would drink. He'd be lucky to sell $3000 worth of booze. He hires a DJ for the same money, the place is packed, and they DRINK. He sells $13,000 worth of booze. Even if people get drunk and destroy a urinal and it costs him $800 to replace, he still makes more money. It's a BUSINESS. How do you compete with that?

Photographers, artists, actors, athletes... they're all in the same boat, but you never hear them complain. Most start out doing what they love for free. And with THOUSANDS of bands, and probably less that 20 places that still have live music around here, as musicians we ain't that special.

The thing is, I do it because I love to play. Now, my little bar band is trying to compete with bands made up of guys who were literally rock stars back in the day. Guys from bands with some serious notoriety are playing for the same $100 a night that I am. They get in the door with their resume. I feel lucky to have my regular gigs, but it's pretty tough out there.

 

[Rickter]

I attended a neighborhood Superbowl party last night. The host's father was visiting NC from Upstate New York. He's a private party DJ. He used to do clubs as well. He's older than me..... maybe in his 60s if I had to guess. He started DJing on 1978 and has been doing it steady ever since.

(By the way, he did his first job entirely on a phone last week. He literally had Spotify and Amazon Prime apps going on his phone and took requests as well as having a "set list". The times, they are uh changin'.)

Get this......


He told me that it's "getting harder and harder to find work". Wanna know why?

He said that "Little bands are springing up everywhere all over the country. Not only are people getting tired of DJs. But these little garage bands will play for LESS MONEY THAN I CAN DO IT FOR."

You read that last part correctly.

We have had this discussion here before. Yes, it's been beat to death. But coming from a DJ who has been in the biz for decades it really hit home for me.

Two things struck me.

1) The whole time we live musicians are pissing and moaning about not getting work because of DJs, they're out there pissing and moaning about not getting work because of "hack bands" (his words).

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

If we all told club owners we would rather stay home than play for $300, the price WOULD go up. Sure, we would lose some to DJs. But not as many as you think.

Just my two cents.

This was the problem I faced in my old band. Singer was willing to play anywhere for $0. Being relatively unknown and not having any real following, we couldn't demand pay, but he refused to understand that continually playing for free at any place that asked was devaluing the band and our efforts.

 

[Frankie Fender]

If you can't tell the difference, why pay for it?

All kidding aside, it is market demand and no one is ever going to make big money playing music out in the clubs in this day and age. Most are doing it for fun and have day jobs. That's just the reality of it.

 

[FunkHead]

I don't want "more" gigs.... and never said I did.

What I want is for awful bands to stay home. What I want is for good bands to charge more. What I want is a rising tide in the local music business. What I want is for the average quality of live music in small bars to go up.

I don't want more gigs. I want better gigs. And I want to see better live music when I go out. Geezers in socks and sandles hacking up simplified versions of same old same olds with horrible production for tips ARE hurting the music scene.... by sucking as much as playing for cheap.

I'd like to know who made you the judge. Every band in the world has people who love them and just as many more who hate them.

If you're are really that great at judging the local talent, then start a local bar band rating website.
Then you can be just like the movie critics who many feel are always wrong.
Band leaders will always be able to get themselves a gig. Some will never be called back to the same club twice. Some will be able to raise their rates and move up the ladder.

It's really not for one person to decide even if that person is a great judge of good music. That's because it's all open to interpretation.

Just like some have stated that even the Stones couldn't cut it as a bar band. Well guess what, that's how they and most other bands started out.

It's a tough business but it's also pretty simple. There's just a lot of luck involved.