CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[two fingers]

This was the problem I faced in my old band. Singer was willing to play anywhere for $0. Being relatively unknown and not having any real following, we couldn't demand pay, but he refused to understand that continually playing for free at any place that asked was devaluing the band and our efforts.

And I'm sorry. Those guys hurt the rest of us.

If you are just desperate to do your thing in front of people, that's an ego trip to me. If you are SO desperate that you would continually display your talents for free, owners will take advantage of that.

Then we get back to the old marriage analogy.

"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"

 

[Brad Johnson]

.....because this is a conversation on the internet and I'm not the only one responding.
Ya think?

First, this conversation is getting on to 8 pages, and this is your only contribution?

Second, your entire attitude has been confrontational. Yes, you're looking for a fight.

Third, you assume that I was personally insulted. Read it again. I was speaking for anyone who might not agree with the posters' contentions, in the same way that (I fully recognize) he was speaking to the larger group.

Fourth, I've been doing this since 1963, when $100 for a 5 piece band to play for four hours was good money! I've been in wedding bands, cover bands, original bands, rock, blues and country bands, and played dive bars and stadiums (well, one!), wearing matching tuxes or blue jeans as appropriate to a professional presentation.(never wore shorts on stage!).

I've been fully engaged in this discussion, not trying to start a fight with anybody, including the poster with whom I was in disagreement.

It's YOU who's making a big deal out of this, imagining (and somehow being bothered by) angst that's only in your mind. LET IT GO!

That definitely answers my question.

 

[frankie5string]

You also need to factor in that for decades, one very large cohort had a virtual monopoly on paid gigs because they were the generation of rock and roll. It's still happening. There are lots of younger folk who are turned away from pubs and bars because Johnny and the Sprockets, all in their late 60s still have a gig and the bar owner is afraid to make the change.

Then you have massive amounts of bar owners retiring, packing it in, dying, closing up, patrons staying home.
The events that are left aren't dumb. They KNOW there are kids out there just aching to play live somewhere. Many will play for free, at least until they get married and their priorities change.

And I'm sorry. Those guys hurt the rest of us.

If you are just desperate to do your thing in front of people, that's an ego trip to me. If you are SO desperate that you would continually display your talents for free, owners will take advantage of that.

Then we get back to the old marriage analogy.

"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"

 

[J-Mags]

The number one problem with live music as I see it, is that people really love playing live music. So playing live music is a skilled trade that is in fairly high demand regionally like other trades and occupations, the only difference being that it's apparently so enjoyable that a majority of players will do it for next to nothing when factoring in the actual amount of skill and time involved to do the job. I've often joked that if playing live music were as enjoyable as roughing in plumbing pipes or cleaning out a main sewer line, the price for our work would go through the roof.....So you're completely right, that if bands would stop doing four hour shows till 2 in the morning for $300, and the demand for live music stayed the same, the price would go up, unfortunately given the fact that so many bands will now pay a venue to play there, unless somehow magically all live musicians join an association or Union, at least on a local level, I can't see this happening anytime soon. I will confess to a certain amount of schadenfreude at the idea of DJ's complaining about live bands taking work away from them though.....

Exactly! Music will always be a buyer's market unless the band is truly top of the heap. There are more performers and wannabe performers than people willing to listen to them. In every field where someone feels compelled to be a musician, or an athlete, or a skateboarder, or an artist, or even a scholar, the you'll have a top heavy market with the very few most in-demand outfits doing well, and everyone else doing poorly. And because of the frequent overlap between artists and audience, you'll be surrounded by cadgers, poseurs, and people seeking freebies as well. Each one of us who isn't an adjunct professor should thank his or her lucky stars. The reason you're surrounded by competent amateurs who are willing to be paid less money is that everyone wants to play music! Not that you shouldn't stick up for yourself, and not that musicians shouldn't make a living, but listening to a professional band is only one way to experience music.

People put their heart and soul into it and think that they can't be replaced, but everyone else has a heart and soul too.

 

[Sparkl]

I'm sorry. Are you agreeing or dissenting? Your previous seemed to be coming from the same place as my posts...

My whole point of ranting is trying to explain the fact that there is probably no other profession on this planet that so actively dumps their prices as music does.

There is a GIANT leap between ordinary bar gigs and mega labels marketing "top notch" musicians which are today mostly (not all) just figurines on the stage and other people (same couple guys for decades now) actually write their music. Such talent except for the looks.

My point is, you have people who are written in music history books as leading developers and pioneers playing 50$ gigs in New York basements (nothing wrong with that) while some recent superstar lip-syncs their whole concert for mega bucks.

So where is the actual value difference? It would really compare as if a mechanic engineer (yes, gonna use this again) who developed the most top notch F1 Ferrari car got paid a couple of dimes while an ordinary janitor working at a Renault factory got paid in heaps of cash, just because he looks like James Bond. Oh and his Renault Clio is being sold for 500k$ while the F1 developer would struggle to sell just one F1 car for a grand.

My point? It is the lack of musical education of people that results in folks not being able to recognise quality over glitter. Or, to put it otherwise, the capability of people to realise the difference between certain products quality is completely arbitrarily and artificially taught through media and mega-marketing.

Therefore there is no way for people to realise why people deserve to put the entrance fee and why they should deserve a higher payment. Not because of ego, but because it is fair. Just as it is fair to pay a top notch google dev top notch money and nobody goes against it.

Call it stupid, tell me that these things do not compare yet I would like to see anybody in this room trying to stay sane in a world with no music and no culture. Some people than pretend in an arrogant way about how certain professions are more "useful" to the society while at the same time ignoring pretty much every aspect of modern civilisation and all the factors and parameters that eventually led to development of such civilisation.

Nowadays, skills and staying true to the music basically don't mean jack. Everything has been sold to major industries where only looks count. Man, playing for a top star nowadays barely feels like being a musician anymore. More like Victorias Secret "secret" model. For sure.

And don't come to me with a list of bands who don't function like that. Sure there are exceptions and I am perfectly aware of that. It is the whole picture that I'm interested in.

And as if this isn't enough, you are trying to book a gig and charge 200€ for the gig of a trio and the organiser responds that he just spoke with 2 more bands (who also play great) that are willing to do the gig for 50€ or even less so I need to drop the price appropriately or he takes the cheaper band. Dude, you simply can't survive with a 50€ gig in Europe, no f'in way. Yeah maybe in NYC where you could theoretically play 5 gigs in a day to accumulate but this just ain't happening over in Europe except for maybe some really big cities the likes of London or something similar.

Anyone reading this, just let this sink in for a moment. Think about it. Put yourself in another perspective instead of trying to justify certain things just because you have a safe job supporting you.

I guess my frustration goes quite beyond what OP two fingers posted but I have been in this business long enough to realise just how unfair things can be when everyone and their mother think that the system we have nowadays couldn't be more perfect.

 

[BassAndReeds]

Ok, this might sound a bit offensive, but.

Sorry man, but the poop does this have to do with capitalism? Everything is a necessity unless you don't want it to. Then, we can close this all off.

Actually this amuses ME, how people who are sunday players, and have zero education about the social effect of music and culture in general and its influence on image of a specific country theorise how something is a necessity or isn't. Reminds me of those completely chewed up right-left political party talks. Sure, doctors and stuff are a necessity. All of this couldn't work though if culture didn't develop and we all started behaving a bit more civilised.

Care to explain how society as such developed purely by figuring out "sure, we need a doctor, let's train one"? You are literally just taking out raw stats and completely ignore all the other factors.

I'm sorry again, but these type of comments literally piss me off.

It would do well for some people to actually take their time and read some of the ancient greeks stuff.

No offense taken.

FWIW, I play over 100 gigs a year, and my tax income on music alone is around $12,000. All performances. I have a day job not in music, and I don’t teach. And that’s the gigs the gov knows about. I have a Bachelors degree in Jazz Studies (and cant really stand many jazzers. Again, ego without worth). I don’t play for less than $100/player at a bar, and I don’t play in hack bands. I think $100 is fair, considering people flip burgers for 8 hours for $80 less taxes. So not sure if you were talking abouy me as a Sunday player, and I don’t care if you were, but I’m not one of them. Unless you think $100 isn’t much in which case you might want to consider a new career and/or your perceived self-worth. It may be inflated.

But I don’t think hack bands are cutting into anyone’s professional profit. I find that statement ridiculous. Hack bands don’t run good sound, or have lights, or remember lyrics, or have pretty female singers. Professional bands get professional gigs, and they are available. Hack bands get hack gigs, and they are also available. In my area anyway.

I’m not sure about the capitalism comment. I didn’t say anything about capitalism. Maybe someone else? And that probably is somewhat silly.

But, Economics! Now we’re talking. And the simple fact is, there’s more money in being a doctor because the market demands it. Not cause doctors “won’t work for less”. Because people need doctors to stop hurting. And that pain is a big driver in their monetary worth. Musicians only provide entertainment, without negative result, if removed from society. Their value is much less, reflecting their lesser need in society and lesser paychecks overall.

But society in the US doesn’t train anyone to do a task. They just reimburse those with knowledge with money, incentivizing more people to gain said knowledge. People go to school to be doctors, cause they like helping people, and they get a good paycheck when they leave school. They also get a ton of debt but the paycheck outweighs those initial costs clearly. And their high debt level is also economics. People will pay more for the knowledge to get a high 6 figure salary in the future.

Shoot, even “hack” bar bands are economics. Bars are paying less these days, probably because the economy isn’t booming and the bar business is cutthroat. So they can only afford $400 for entertainment. Professional bands won’t play it, these hack bands will, so they get the gig.

So what comes first? Bars can only afford $400 for entertainment, and professionals won’t do it so they hire less than professional bands? Or hack bands infiltrate a bar paying $800, undercut the existing bands, and drive down the cost to $400?

If you believe it’s the latter, I disagree.

 

[two fingers]

I'd like to know who made you the judge. Every band in the world has people who love them and just as many more who hate them.

If you're are really that great at judging the local talent, then star a local bar band rating website.
Then you can be just like the movie critics who many feel are always wrong.
Band leaders will always be able to get themselves a gig. Some will never be called back to the same club twice. Some will be able to raise their rates and move up the ladder.

It's really not for one person to decide even if that person is a great judge of good music. That's because it's all open to interpretation.

Just like some have stated that even he Stones couldn't cut it as a bar band. Well guess what, that's how they and most other bands started out.

It's a tough business but it's also pretty simple. There's just a lot of luck involved.

I never said I was "the judge". I'm simply sharing my opinions.

Is everyone here who shares his/her opinion about flats, tort, Fender, Ric, best crap for metal, and the latest musical gadget claiming to be "the judge"????

(Of course not. That's just silly.)

We have people here who wouldn't know a soldering iron from a cast iron skillet and they share their opinions with legendary design engineers regarding what they did "wrong".

We have people who have never played a gig sharing their opinions about what the best amp for outdoor gigs is.

We have people here who have never tried in-ear monitors who share their opinions on why they hate them.

Are they all trying to be "the judge"?

Of course not. They're just sharing their opinions.

I would like to he afforded the same courtesy they are, thank you.

Bu the way, I know you were just sharing your opinions. And that's cool too.

 

[BassAndReeds]

With respect, to your elegantly stated points, I would argue that given the vast scope of art produced by all human cultures going back tens of thousands of years - up until the present day ; that it is an unavoidable fact that artistic expression is a deep human need both on an individual and group level.

Ok. But how much do tribes in Africa make for their cultural song and dance? Maybe I should learn a new skill.

 

[City]

The number one problem with live music as I see it, is that people really love playing live music. So playing live music is a skilled trade that is in fairly high demand regionally like other trades and occupations, the only difference being that it's apparently so enjoyable that a majority of players will do it for next to nothing when factoring in the actual amount of skill and time involved to do the job. I've often joked that if playing live music were as enjoyable as roughing in plumbing pipes or cleaning out a main sewer line, the price for our work would go through the roof.....So you're completely right, that if bands would stop doing four hour shows till 2 in the morning for $300, and the demand for live music stayed the same, the price would go up, unfortunately given the fact that so many bands will now pay a venue to play there, unless somehow magically all live musicians join an association or Union, at least on a local level, I can't see this happening anytime soon. I will confess to a certain amount of schadenfreude at the idea of DJ's complaining about live bands taking work away from them though.....

You touched on demand, (demand stays the same), then you go right to the guys playing for free. You can't go there because demand has not stayed the same. Demand for music, demand for a party evening out, demand to drink in a bar, instead of drinking at home....all these demands have been reduced, and in the free market, prices for bands (supply glut) have to come down. They call it a "Law" of supply and demand. I don't know if it can be a "Law" but indeed it plays out over and over.

 

[Wanker_Joe]

2) But I'll say it again. If you are playing GIGS with a full band for a few hundred bucks, you are actually HURTING the market for the rest of us.

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ with nothing but two speakers on a stick and some fancy lights gets.

Seriously?

Listen. I'll play for whatever is being offered, because I just want a night out of the house to play some music for people. If your band is competing with my band of hacks and wannabes for little shows that pay a hundred bucks a pop, frankly that's not my problem.

 

[TrevorOfDoom]

Read my sig.

 

[Jimmy4string]

CRAZY!! ...but that's how it goes

 

[FunkHead]

I never said I was "the judge". I'm simply sharing my opinions...........Bu the way, I know you were just sharing your opinions. And that's cool too.....

In my view it's because more than half the bands are horrible.

little garage bands

Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage if you can't demand more than a DJ

Hack players that don't care how they look, kinda don't care how they sound,

delusional crowd that actually thinks their awful band is good

crowd that knows they suck "But I wanna play loud under lights to screw you!!!!

Nah, Nothing Judgement at all.

 

[SteveCS]

My whole point of ranting is trying to explain the fact that there is probably no other profession on this planet that so actively dumps their prices as music does.

There is a GIANT leap between ordinary bar gigs and mega labels marketing "top notch" musicians which are today mostly (not all) just figurines on the stage and other people (same couple guys for decades now) actually write their music. Such talent except for the looks.

My point is, you have people who are written in music history books as leading developers and pioneers playing 50$ gigs in New York basements (nothing wrong with that) while some recent superstar lip-syncs their whole concert for mega bucks.

So where is the actual value difference? It would really compare as if a mechanic engineer (yes, gonna use this again) who developed the most top notch F1 Ferrari car got paid a couple of dimes while an ordinary janitor working at a Renault factory got paid in heaps of cash, just because he looks like James Bond. Oh and his Renault Clio is being sold for 500k$ while the F1 developer would struggle to sell just one F1 car for a grand.

My point? It is the lack of musical education of people that results in folks not being able to recognise quality over glitter. Or, to put it otherwise, the capability of people to realise the difference between certain products quality is completely arbitrarily and artificially taught through media and mega-marketing.

Therefore there is no way for people to realise why people deserve to put the entrance fee and why they should deserve a higher payment. Not because of ego, but because it is fair. Just as it is fair to pay a top notch google dev top notch money and nobody goes against it.

Call it stupid, tell me that these things do not compare yet I would like to see anybody in this room trying to stay sane in a world with no music and no culture. Some people than pretend in an arrogant way about how certain professions are more "useful" to the society while at the same time ignoring pretty much every aspect of modern civilisation and all the factors and parameters that eventually led to development of such civilisation.

Nowadays, skills and staying true to the music basically don't mean jack. Everything has been sold to major industries where only looks count. Man, playing for a top star nowadays barely feels like being a musician anymore. More like Victorias Secret "secret" model. For sure.

And don't come to me with a list of bands who don't function like that. Sure there are exceptions and I am perfectly aware of that. It is the whole picture that I'm interested in.

And as if this isn't enough, you are trying to book a gig and charge 200€ for the gig of a trio and the organiser responds that he just spoke with 2 more bands (who also play great) that are willing to do the gig for 50€ or even less so I need to drop the price appropriately or he takes the cheaper band. Dude, you simply can't survive with a 50€ gig in Europe, no f'in way. Yeah maybe in NYC where you could theoretically play 5 gigs in a day to accumulate but this just ain't happening over in Europe except for maybe some really big cities the likes of London or something similar.

Anyone reading this, just let this sink in for a moment. Think about it. Put yourself in another perspective instead of trying to justify certain things just because you have a safe job supporting you.

I guess my frustration goes quite beyond what OP two fingers posted but I have been in this business long enough to realise just how unfair things can be when everyone and their mother think that the system we have nowadays couldn't be more perfect.

I think, idealistically, we agree.

 

[Sparkl]

No offense taken.

FWIW, I play over 100 gigs a year, and my tax income on music alone is around $12,000. All performances. I have a day job not in music, and I don’t teach. And that’s the gigs the gov knows about. I have a Bachelors degree in Jazz Studies (and cant really stand many jazzers. Again, ego without worth). I don’t play for less than $100/player at a bar, and I don’t play in hack bands. I think $100 is fair, considering people flip burgers for 8 hours for $80 less taxes. So not sure if you were talking abouy me as a Sunday player, and I don’t care if you were, but I’m not one of them. Unless you think $100 isn’t much in which case you might want to consider a new career and/or your perceived self-worth. It may be inflated.

But I don’t think hack bands are cutting into anyone’s professional profit. I find that statement ridiculous. Hack bands don’t run good sound, or have lights, or remember lyrics, or have pretty female singers. Professional bands get professional gigs, and they are available. Hack bands get hack gigs, and they are also available. In my area anyway.

I’m not sure about the capitalism comment. I didn’t say anything about capitalism. Maybe someone else? And that probably is somewhat silly.

But, Economics! Now we’re talking. And the simple fact is, there’s more money in being a doctor because the market demands it. Not cause doctors “won’t work for less”. Because people need doctors to stop hurting. And that pain is a big driver in their monetary worth. Musicians only provide entertainment, without negative result, if removed from society. Their value is much less, reflecting their lesser need in society and lesser paychecks overall.

But society in the US doesn’t train anyone to do a task. They just reimburse those with knowledge with money, incentivizing more people to gain said knowledge. People go to school to be doctors, cause they like helping people, and they get a good paycheck when they leave school. They also get a ton of debt but the paycheck outweighs those initial costs clearly. And their high debt level is also economics. People will pay more for the knowledge to get a high 6 figure salary in the future.

Shoot, even “hack” bar bands are economics. Bars are paying less these days, probably because the economy isn’t booming and the bar business is cutthroat. So they can only afford $400 for entertainment. Professional bands won’t play it, these hack bands will, so they get the gig.

So what comes first? Bars can only afford $400 for entertainment, and professionals won’t do it so they hire less than professional bands? Or hack bands infiltrate a bar paying $800, undercut the existing bands, and drive down the cost to $400?

If you believe it’s the latter, I disagree.

Ok, we have different points of perspective since we come from entirely different countries and culture.

First let me clarify the fact that the "sunday thing" didn't refer to you but to the general point of view of people who like to discuss about things without having a single clue about. And since masses will always outnumber musicians it is easy to convince people simply using the "argumentum ad populum" trick without really understanding elemental stuff.

I also have a bachelors degree in jazz and am a bachelor of musical pedagogy. I also whole heartedly agree that ego is a big thing between musicians, raising competition where none is needed/exists.

Let me tell you how things are in Europe or at least where I come from (Slovenia). I will refer to neighbouring countries as well (Italy, Austria, Croatia etc.) since I have a lot of experience gigging there as well.

Most of the events here, if not supported by some big agency with big money, are small events, mostly up to couple of thousand visitors.

People realise this. And they (we) know, that if you want to get a shot at actually playing these events you have to make use of certain tactics.

The organiser OTOH doesn't give a poop. They will fill the venue with bands who play for the most amount of time and charge as little as possible. Yes, it is no secret that in my area crap bands play big events just because they don't cost the organiser much. And these people played more shows in a year than some of us ever did just for the fact that they sold their music for so little.

We have bands playing for 8 hours, charging 200-300€. People mostly don't have the ability to make a difference between quality and crap music and so everyone is happy.

OTOH you have musicians, who have spent their entire life learning the music and have the ability to play music true to the form (with dynamics, feel, heart etc) who can't get a gig because another band constantly out dumps them. So everyone gets a job here. Factories, post offices, police, whatever. Once you have a safe job support behind your back, you don't care for the gigging profits THAT much. So these cats, great players, join the game and start dumping too, just to get a gig to have some fun. So they play for low cash. Thing is, in Europe most people don't give a poopie about country, funk, reggae etc etc. (you name it) but only go to gigs because they get to drink a crapload of beers and screw around. So basically only national folks music and some specific genres from the neighbouring countries prosper here. The rest can just sod off.

So, we have a situation where everybody plays for almost next to nothing, exceptional musicians, who would somewhere else on some lucky coincidence get tons of respect for doing what they do best, playing dumbed out music just to be able to do what they always wanted to do - play.

And there you go with your desire of wanting to earn a living by playing music. I am not asking for a "small loan of a million dollars", all I am asking is to cover the bills man.

And this might sound like an ego thing but there is a lot of us actually capable of playing very good yet have zero options of doing it, unless we move out and then get called immigrants by others and taking away the jobs from other residents.

If musicians would raise up their moral standards and knew when to say "enough is enough" we would either finally be paid fairly or just realise that there is no progress that can be done and rather start enjoying something else - an ordinary job, or studio music, or something.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Anyone reading this, just let this sink in for a moment. Think about it. Put yourself in another perspective instead of trying to justify certain things just because you have a safe job supporting you.

Maybe you're trying to make a hobby a career. Play in the big name bands, go on tour, there are certainly paths to making money, really good money in music. But you have to be willing to take those steps. If you're trying to do things that others are willing to do as a hobby for fun, maybe it's time for some self-reflection instead of blaming everyone else.

 

[4001]

Just like some have stated that even the Stones couldn't cut it as a bar band. Well guess what, that's how they and most other bands started out.

Back then, more bands had the REAL chance of moving beyond the bars within a matter of just a few years and playing REAL gigs and writing music the THEY want to play with a four album deal and tours to support it.

THAT'S OVER.

I cannot find any musicians to form a band and play anything but the lame bar set because it's a waste of time to play anything else.

And people have told me I have a narrow focus when it comes to music.
No, it's just that I don't look at everything through the bottom of a shot glass.

 

[frankie5string]

Yeah, when I saw that little nugget about the audience being delusional, I realized that it was probably time for him to put his instrument down, and take up knitting or miniature-painting.

Nah, Nothing Judgement at all.

 

[FunkHead]

job or marriage or mom sucks and you need a release?

Just stop doing it HORRIBLY.

hack garage bands

Elvis Presley. Fat guy in a loud whole outfit from head to toe.... and a huge belt buckle covering his big fat gut the whole time. He did OK, I guess.

Elton John. Tiny guy in loud everything.

Here's just a few more.

 

[FunkHead]

Here's a couple more from our non-judgemental OP. This time with yelling.

because most local bands suck.

ACTUALLY GET GOOD ENOUGH TO PLAY IN FRONT OF PEOPLE.