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CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

I go back nearly 20 years with several club owners. So, I'm fine. I'm squeezing every dollar out of what they'll do these days.

But I'm not trying to make a living at it.

There is zero motivation these days IN MY AREA for an 18-24 year old person to gather like-minded people around, learn a set, polish and act, invest in PA, set up a corporate structure, and go work their way up to the private/corporate scene.

The pro band I played in for a decade was exactly that. There were half a dozen others that started around the same time that did well. Many of the older pro bands AROUND HERE had done the same thing in the 80s or 90s.... a few since the 70s..... one since 1959.

The only way a kid has a shot of making a living in a situation like that IN MY AREA is to take the place of a retiring or fired band member in an established band. But there used to be tons of us. Parking lots at festivals used to have circles of older musicians telling younger musicians stories and whatnot.

Again, I'm not upset FOR MYSELF. All I want to do is get a fair rate for bringing 35-48 year old music veterans and executing a great performance in a few bars. If I don't get that, we'll stay in my jam room and have some laughs. I don't "need" to do what I do in front of a "crowd" like many here seem to (which is fine).

We won't do it for $300. Period. We won't do it for a dime under $800.... and that's an introductory rate. But it's not the need for the money. It's the principle of the thing.

But there's no way a young upstart band should try to become a polished act with a great PA and lighting and start with clubs while contacting agents (the same way every established band around here started for decades). If I were asked I would tell them to forget it. And PART of the reason I would tell them that is they'll starve before they can build a good reputation having to shift through the swamp of what the music scene has become IN OUR AREA.

"Syde Projek" and "Al and the Other Accountants" amd "Wylde Streak" "deserve to blow off some steam after swinging hammers and punching keys all week". And they'll do it for nothing. So that's what OUR MARKET has become. More than 50% horrible bands with horrible 8" speakers on a stick for PA, no lights, gardening clothes, and watered down versions of songs that were never that hard to begin with for people who can actually play.

It's not about me. It's about the future of what was once a pretty good music scene.

Hack bands are a factor. Period. They're not the only reason it's dying. But the ARE a factor IN MY AREA.


I know a lot of people in the "good" bands in my area and none of them, zero, do it as their job. They'll make supplemental income from it, but there just aren't enough gigs to play enough nights in the week to make the money to pay rent let alone mortgage. They're teaching, private lessons, sound company, real estate agents, recruiters, IT, etc. Even what we would call "successful" Nashville musicians often have a second side job with flexibility - or a wife with an inheritance / job with benefits.

Why would an upstart band buy a good PA and lights? Why would someone spend $75k on a bass boat to catch some fish in a river that he could buy at a store for a few buck? It's a hobby. If you want $800 / night to play your bootlegs, great. But that doesn't make economic sense for most bars that most "hack" / hobby bands are playing in. To just break even you need to guarantee that you're going to bring 75 people that wouldn't be in the bar without you being there. You don't have a website nor a facebook page, so you don't have a following. Should club owner risk $800 for a slow night or $300 for a slow night?

A band's number one asset isn't their PA subs, nor their lights, even their songs or sound - it's how many people they can bring with them to the bar. And the bar has to be sized right for a larger crowd or it's not a fit. Maybe you're great and bring 80-100 people, but if the kitchen can't handle that volume and the place is uncomfortably crowded then they're getting crappy Yelp reviews.

"Hack" bands are filling a void that larger bands wish existed.
 
Now you are starting to make more sense... I think the 'traditional' routes got closed off decades ago, roughly around the time of the expansion and virtualisation of global mass-media and the steadily reducing number of organisations that control it.

Well..... at least we haven't degraded to conspiracy theories.
 
You don’t think after 426 posts that the original topic had not been put through the wringer over and over enough already.
Your response to Father Gino was pretty dimissive after he made a relevant statement about what motivates people to play and you know, some people don’t play for money. Very on topic I would say.
I’ve defended peoples right to play for less than I do the WHOLE TIME you baboon.

I’m dismissive cause Father Gino took 1/8th of my post, and wrote something off topic. And he sound not so bright. I like to have conversations with bright people. Which begs the question why I keep responding to the both of you.
 
I’ve defended peoples right to play for less than I do the WHOLE TIME you baboon.

I’m dismissive cause Father Gino took 1/8th of my post, and wrote something off topic. And he sound not so bright. I like to have conversations with bright people. Which begs the question why I keep responding to the both of you.
Your response says more about you than it does about me or Father Gino.
 
I know a lot of people in the "good" bands in my area and none of them, zero, do it as their job. They'll make supplemental income from it, but there just aren't enough gigs to play enough nights in the week to make the money to pay rent let alone mortgage. They're teaching, private lessons, sound company, real estate agents, recruiters, IT, etc. Even what we would call "successful" Nashville musicians often have a second side job with flexibility - or a wife with an inheritance / job with benefits.

Why would an upstart band buy a good PA and lights? Why would someone spend $75k on a bass boat to catch some fish in a river that he could buy at a store for a few buck? It's a hobby. If you want $800 / night to play your bootlegs, great. But that doesn't make economic sense for most bars that most "hack" / hobby bands are playing in. To just break even you need to guarantee that you're going to bring 75 people that wouldn't be in the bar without you being there. You don't have a website nor a facebook page, so you don't have a following. Should club owner risk $800 for a slow night or $300 for a slow night?

A band's number one asset isn't their PA subs, nor their lights, even their songs or sound - it's how many people they can bring with them to the bar. And the bar has to be sized right for a larger crowd or it's not a fit. Maybe you're great and bring 80-100 people, but if the kitchen can't handle that volume and the place is uncomfortably crowded then they're getting crappy Yelp reviews.

"Hack" bands are filling a void that larger bands wish existed.

We do have a following. Who said we didn't? We had a following before our first show. :D

We had a following of people who would ask us "When are you getting back in a band, man???"

Our first show was an outdoor venue. It was a fenced in courtyard. The owners allowed people to spill out into the parking lot on the other side of the fence.

Draw is not an issue. Web presence isn't an issue due to long-standing reputations and friendships with all of the members.

Again, this is NOT about me. I'm playing all I want and getting a pay I can (begrudgingly) live with.
 
In my area all the venues from the largest to the smallest have a house pa. Most have house lights too. Couple have house backline they insist on using.

Young whippersnappers in my area form bands, and they are amazing. Heavy metal a lot of them play sounds generally to me like there's trouble at the mill, and someone is screaming in pain, but I recognise the pure technical ability they have. Heavy metal with original songs fills houses, so yeah. There is that too. Jazz bands are great too.

But we still lost a nice place a year or so ago. They converted a bar in to a restaurant and 24/7 gym. Not enough people coming to gigs.
 
In my area all the venues from the largest to the smallest have a house pa. Most have house lights too. Couple have house backline they insist on using.

Young whippersnappers in my area form bands, and they are amazing. Heavy metal a lot of them play sounds generally to me like there's trouble at the mill, and someone is screaming in pain, but I recognise the pure technical ability they have. Heavy metal with original songs fills houses, so yeah. There is that too. Jazz bands are great too.

But we still lost a nice place a year or so ago. They converted a bar in to a restaurant and 24/7 gym. Not enough people coming to gigs.

Man, all local venues having a house PA and some having a backline sounds like a dream.
 
C'mon folks, let's quit the sniping at each other. Name calling is so juvenile, but maybe those who do so ARE juvenile (so we can give 'em a pass, unless they don't stop!). @two fingers was stating HIS experience and HIS observations. Others disagree. There ARE effective ways to disagree. Sometimes it's easy to see why some TBers just do the hard work and get the gigs, while others are constantly carping about their inability to hold a band together and their lack of gigs. It says more about the individuals than it does about the market. This isn't Washington DC ... where everything becomes a rallying point for name-calling and vitriol ... it's TalkBass ... a place for (ostensibly) like-minded individuals to share their love of tugging the fat strings.
 
yes, this please.

See quoted post below.

I maintain an "arms lenght" approach to the internet. Sure, I share a lot about myself. But it's intentionally ambiguous. Honestly, my current project has no web presence currently anyway. We've all been too busy to do it with the holidays and whatnot (even though our guitar player is a webmaster for a major industrial machines company.) We've only done three gigs. We're all former or current members of popular regional bands. The two places we have played we've gotten over $800. We'll likely get both venues to a grand by Spring. That'll do for our goals.... which are few and not very serious.


That's all I want to play unless a good fill-in gig comes along. I never said I want to play every weekend.

But here's what we do.

Nice powered-speakers PA....at least two tops and two subs. Nice Midas digital board. We hire a good sound guy who runs sound via an iPad. We all control our own monitor mixes from our phones. Usually in-ears but we have the wedges to do those too if need be. Three trees of lights (one in back and two in front). If that gig's sound guy doesn't want to mess with lights, I do them with a foot controller.

We have one rule about outward appearance of band members. "Don't look like you belong in the audience." The female singer struggles with this emotionally. There's nothing naturally "edgy" about her. So she has to dress and do her hair in a way that's not "natural" to her. But she does it. Because we have a rule. She's having more fun with it every gig.

One rule about drinking. The rest of the band has the right to cut you off. If you're mad about it, we talk about it later. No exceptions. None of us would drink too much anyway. That's a "just in case" rule.

The music. We do a lot of vocal harmony rock and modern country with a few soul songs sprinkled in. Three part harmonies are dead on. We do more vocal rehearsals than band rehearsal (only three full band rehearsals so far..... but this ain't our first rodeo.... so we chose the set via text... and each of us showed up to the first rehearsal ready to play 42 songs).

We haven't posed for a pic.... not even a casual one at a gig. We aren't trying to get bigger, further, or "more successful".

Success to us is the following.....

Our mission statement "Be the best local bar band. Don't be like the other local bar bands. Try a little harder. Entertain. Play everything perfectly. Don't look like the audience." It's hanging on the wall of the rehearsal room. (Of course, perfection is impossible. And we don't mean it literally. We simply mean play it "right".)

If we can't NAIL a song, we don't play it. There have been two dropped so far for that reason. One had too many horns. The other had too many vocal parts.

Everything we do is/was a radio hit with the exception of one song. Our guitar player nails "Cliffs of Dover" so we open the second set with it as a three peice. Then keys and lady singer join us.

We do half a dozen different songs each show. In other words, 5 or 6 songs get dropped from last show and we replace them. Part of the joy for us is learning challenging songs..... especially challenging three-part vocals.

We show up on time. Zero drama. I'm the only contact for one place. She's the only contact for the other.

We are great friends. Rehearsals involve more laughter than productive work. My one critique of our live performance is that we laugh so much on stage. I can't fuss at them because I'm the guiltiest party. It's always during the song. There is never "silence" on our stage. Never a "pause" while guitars are tuned (and never EVER a stupid joke about guitar tuning.... oy.)

We are professionals. Period.

We take our joyous hobby seriously. ;)
 
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i can respect that, absolutely (and missed that post in the sea of posts). but it seems to me that a very fine line is being walked.

I'm pushing 50, have one bad knee and slightly elevated blood pressure, have two young (7 and 9 years old) daughters and a wife, have a 5 acre yard to maintain, and my job requires me to balance high-tech equipment in 91 offices in 21 towns (each of which employs mostly women).

Walking a fine line is a way of life for me. :cool:

When I buy shoes, I make sure they are "fine line capable". Cuz that's where I do all of my walking. :D
 
Most musical ability is learnable - just like with reasoning and critical thought, people just don’t want to bad enough to stick with it.

If it's learnable but people don't learn, how learnable is it?

For many the struggle is too much. Because of the difficulty most seem to have. Get some perspective.

Watch some American Idol auditions.
:D
 
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Man, all local venues having a house PA and some having a backline sounds like a dream.
I didn't realise it was that special. Couple even have a house mixer dude.

So bands here don't usually invest in pa. Quite useless in most cases.

But yeah. We have varying local situations, but all have the same problem, people not coming to see gigs enough. My money's on all the new ways of spending free time. From YouTube to Netflix to Talk Bass to online games to dating apps and so on and so on.
 
I'm pushing 50, have one bad knee and slightly elevated blood pressure, have two young (7 and 9 years old) daughters and a wife, have a 5 acre yard to maintain, and my job requires me to balance high-tech equipment in 91 offices in 21 towns (each of which employs mostly women).

Walking a fine line is a way of life for me. :cool:

When I buy shoes, I make sure they are "fine line capable". Cuz that's where I do all of my walking. :D

ha ha i get it. respect.

what i meant by the “fine line” comment is:

i don’t care about what a band looks like, their light show or the words they use to describe how pro they are. i just care about the sound. are they sonically together? that to me is still the standard.

and you have just shared more about your life on the internet than i ever would. but i digress...

are you comfortable enough to share some (edit) “sound” clips of your recent bands/projects?
 
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