Creating space

[pLewis]

Was it just you and the guitarist? No drums?

Yes, no drums....

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

"Play less notes" is what he might mean.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Yes, no drums....

Does he want you to just follow him with melodic harmonies?

I can't imagine creating a groove for a guitar player without drums

 

[pLewis]

I've spent many days and nights working with old band mates with no drums, just writing parts, grooves. This was just weird and seemed forced. I appreciate all the great insight by the way.

 

[aprod]

Does he want you to just follow him with melodic harmonies?

I can't imagine creating a groove for a guitar player without drums

I guess you know what you need to work on.

 

[Egg250]

If he said something about not playing the same three chords, I think he's looking for a more complex progression.

 

[Auspuff]

Good afternoon everyone, I don't think this is the area I should be posting this thread, however I need some help. I had a friend of mine come over to play/jam we've been talking about getting something moving for a while. We ended up playing for about 30 min. He then turned to me and said "I don't want to just jam on the same three chords, I need a bass line that creates space" what on earth does that mean?

He needs to articulate exactly what he seeks, so you can give a rational response.

If you were a mind reader, you would be the richest person, on Earth.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

So I asked our friendly bot, ChatGPT the question: "What does a guitar player mean when he tells the bass player to create more space?"

The bot replied:

In music, creating "space" typically means leaving more room for other instruments or sounds to be heard. When a guitar player tells a bass player to create more space, they are usually asking the bass player to simplify their playing or to play fewer notes in order to leave more room for the other instruments to be heard. This can help to create a more balanced and cohesive sound overall.

It's important to note that "creating space" can mean different things in different musical contexts, and can be interpreted in a variety of ways depending on the specific musical situation. Ultimately, the goal is to ensure that each instrument is able to be heard clearly and that the overall sound of the band is balanced and harmonious.​

I instantly understood the problem when I saw the purpose of space is to let another instrument be heard. Guitarists always want to be heard. They can never get enough of hearing their wanking. Guitarists are the first to turn it up ... and up and up and up. It sounds to me like your two-man band is doomed unless you're up for being a door matt.

 

[vickerekes]

Rather than recreating the wheel, I’m posting what I consider to be the best succinct counsel, from a musical genius, that I’ve seen for your situation (or any, really) on any instrument (especially bass):

Chick Corea's "Cheap but Good Advice"

1. Play only what you hear.
2. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
3. Don’t let your fingers and limbs wander — place them intentionally.
4. Don’t improvise on endlessly — play something with intention, develop it or not, but then end off, take a break.
5. Leave space — create space — intentionally create places where you don’t play.
6. Make your sound blend. Listen to your sound and adjust it to the rest of the band and the room.
7. If you play more than one instrument at a time — like a drum kit or multiple keyboards — make sure that they are balanced with one another.
8. Don’t make any of your music mechanically or just through patterns of habit. Create each sound, phrase, and piece with choice — deliberately.
9. Guide your choice of what to play by what you like-not by what someone else will think.
10. Use contrast and balance the elements: high/low, fast/slow, loud/soft, tense/relaxed, dense/sparse.
11. Play to make the other musicians sound good. Play things that will make the overall music sound good.
12. Play with a relaxed body. Always release whatever tension you create.
13. Create space — begin, develop, and end phrases with intention.
14. Never beat or pound your instrument — play it easily and gracefully.
15. Create space — then place something in it.
16. Use mimicry sparsely — mostly create phrases that contrast with and develop the phrases of the other players.

 

[Michedelic]

Does he want you to just follow him with melodic harmonies?

I can't imagine creating a groove for a guitar player without drums

I guess you’ve never heard of Hot Tuna?

 

[Tommy Sparks]

Perhaps next time You should have your crystal ball fully charged to figure out what he’s talking about. it’s not just you, he needs to explain what he wants.

 

[BassBrass]

This plot, like many sit-coms, depends on a lack of basic comminication between people. You didn't ask him right away what the 'eck he means by the criptic comment, so the next episode continues on the premis of not knowing until you actually ask for specifics. Then you say "Oh! That's what you meant!!!" and cue the laugh track.
But the quick pack up and exit sounds like a personality disorder, so you were warned.

 

[Guitalia]

I guess you’ve never heard of Hot Tuna?

From what I've read over the years, JeezyMcNuggles has enough of a history as a musician to be given the benefit of the doubt regarding what he knows about grooves.

Invoking the guys who recorded the whitest sounding coffeehouse blues music I've ever heard seems an odd choice as an example of groove, by the way.

Yes, I nurse a decades-long antipathy for the insipid sound of West Coast folkies on electric instruments. Having once had a bandmate insist, with a fatuous grin, that the Grateful Dead's bass player's meandering playing style was, like, the best in the world, man, might be what pushed me over the edge.

My suggestion: if the OP thinks it's worth giving the guitarist another shot, he should ask for specific examples of songs---by name---that have the kind of space he was talking about.

That "generic" crack tells me that you shouldn't expect much, though. The attitude of some guitarists toward bassists has a lot in common with the attitude of many guys in bands playing "originals" toward guys in cover bands---i.e., a usually unfounded sense of superiority.

 

[brianrost]

I whittled down Chick's list of 16 to these 7 that I feel most important in the way I try to approach jamming. My emphasis in red.

1. Don’t let your fingers and limbs wander — place them intentionally.

2. Leave space — create space — intentionally create places where you don’t play.

3. Don’t make any of your music mechanically or just through patterns of habit. Create each sound, phrase, and piece with choice — deliberately.

4. Use contrast and balance the elements: high/low, fast/slow, loud/soft, tense/relaxed, dense/sparse.

5. Play to make the other musicians sound good. Play things that will make the overall music sound good.

6. Play with a relaxed body. Always release whatever tension you create.

7. Create space — begin, develop, and end phrases with intention.

 

[Matt Dean]

Want more space... do a one cord jam.

 

[singlemalt]

Lose this guitarist’s number.

This is classic, passive aggressive behavior. “I don’t like this stone, bring me another.” It won’t improve with time. Eventually, you’ll smack him upside the head with a stone.

You bring him another stone. You thought it was a great stone, but, “Nope, not this one.” Says he.

And now there’s blood all over the stone.

Avoid this guy.

 

[Chris Wilke]

Hard to say - he may be obsessed with grabbing ideas from you so he take endless extended solos. This is kind of stereotypical for rock guitarists but not necessarily the case here. Or, he maybe trying to have a musical conversation and is just not feeling it yet.

Was he soloing most of the time? Or was he looking to get a groove going with a rhythm part and then solo?

Or was he trying to take the jam in different directions and perhaps just felt you were stuck? Did he want you to follow him to new territory and perhaps you missed the cue? Perhaps the cue was too subtle or too assuming you would instantly know where he wanted to go.

“Space” could be interpreted differently in different contexts it could be a pause at the end of a four bar phrase where he might place a fill…Assuming he was comping/grooving (ie not soloing) the rest of the time.

or it could mean more space within each bar.

or it could mean more variation/more expression and didn’t actually mean more space though that would not be the best use of the term.


but I will say this - most improvised music and a lot of compositions in-general tend to not have enough space. People tend to noodle and/or overplay.

In my opinion the best music, particularly improvised music, whether it is rock, jazz r&b, etc should sound like a conversation between players. Instead of each person simply doing their “job”. That can work too, and it is often the safest way to go, but it is not the ultimate.

I’d check in with him see what he might want to do differently next time. Maybe adding a bit of structure to the jam will help?

Although I appreciate when people want to hang around and talk about stuff after a rehearsal, some people are not that way. I’ve played with a couple drummers recently who were just not into the post practice banter - they always left promptly 100% of the time - to the detriment of band cohesion in my view. But they were good players and it didn’t mean they didn’t enjoy the band or what we were doing.
So I wouldn’t read into it much unless it is obvious.

 

[eddododo]

Good afternoon everyone, I don't think this is the area I should be posting this thread, however I need some help. I had a friend of mine come over to play/jam we've been talking about getting something moving for a while. We ended up playing for about 30 min. He then turned to me and said "I don't want to just jam on the same three chords, I need a bass line that creates space" what on earth does that mean?

welllllll… it’s kinda imperative that y’all discuss and elaborate what he means by that. YOU should approach it with an open mind and coachability, and he should try to be concise/clear and patient. Not saying anyone isn’t being that, but it’s an important factor when guys are growing and learning from eachother and pushing their art together.

In the simplest of terms, I would assume a very good trick for you would be to just vamp a single chord for awhile- even better if it’s not one of the three you’ve been cycling. So let’s say y’all have been going C- | D- G7 | over and over- at some point you can climb up or otherwise steer / signal a change and go up to F7 and just ride that bad boy. It gives something new for the listener, and for the band it not only gives you some new context to solo over, but the single chord vamp allows a soloist (or any role honestly) more leeway to expand both vertically AND horizontally without having to keep that question->answer feel that cycling chords lends itself to. Vertically meaning they can feel free to use more of the key/scale and build tension / release melodically, rather than harmonically; horizontally meaning they are free to build interest and tension/release by way of the length of phrases, rather than, again, being dictated by the repetitive turn around of a chord loop. This is basically the essence of what it means to play ‘modally.’ It can be an interesting tool to change the vibe, and I would absolutely describe it as ‘open.’

zooming out a bit, there is indeed sort of an elephant in the room, when it comes to jamming… the two big limitations when you decide to purely improvise as a group are that a) you’re limited to what information can be conveyed and agreed-upon by means of in the moment communication, and b) you are limited to an extent to what you ALREADY can do. The reason that very good jazz, and I mean actually good jazz, not just competent, is the ability to actually achieve something new in those moments, and this is still a somewhat rare occurrence (make no mistake about it, even the best jazz players are doing a healthy majority of the night with things they have done before, and most of the magic comes with the execution and the establishment of context and mood). So these things have to be worked out and made sophisticated in order to have a jam session that is interesting to the listener and the players.. this is achieved almost entirely by group chemistry (assuming everyone is a good and experienced player to begin with). All that to say simply that you SHOULD discuss this, openly and with a creative heart, because the more YOU understand what HE hears and knows, and the more HE understands the same from YOU, the more you are both able to access that higher level in the art.

if I go play any kind of funk or jazz jam, it’s going to be good, it’s going to be competent and convincing and there are going to be killer moments. But when I play with MY GUYS, the guys I learned music with, the guys I obsessed with in college, the guys I’ve been on the road with, you become musical family, you KNOW stuff like ‘Chads about to do that extension, I wonder if I can slip this sub under it’ or even ‘Zach hates this, he’s uncomfortable or frustrated, let me feed him a bit of rope’

there’s no magic like lowering our defenses and doing the work.

 

[jamro217]

Communication between musicians is the key to success. The difference between a band and a collection of musicians on the same stage is good communication. As far as "creating space" is concerned, ask him to clarify that (as well as any other abstract musical terminology) for the sake of this venture. Hope this helps.

 

[Michael Stanley 2112]

There's a term I've heard some musicians using and I've even used it, myself: "The almighty rest".

There are times, when it's not just used for syncopation; but also to just break up a pattern of nothing but quarter or eighth notes.

It's setting a groove; not just following what the drummer's laying down (especially if you're playing without a drummer) that gives the song a special feel which makes it unique.