Customer refund difficulties

[Musiclogic]

Simple question.....After discontinuing a project and issuing a refund due to health reasons, customer indecision and inability to provide parts for the layout and set-up as agreed upon. Should the customer be demanding the parts anyway.

I issued the young man a FULL REFUND.

As many know I had some heart problems that forced me out of work for a while. I told the young man I would work on it as I had time, and maybe turn it into a clock or something...LOL Well; he starts demanding the body and neck, he has recieved his full refund including the template charge for his design.

So I polished up the incomplete body and neck and sent them to him......At NO COST to him for the shipping either. I recieve an insulting letter decrying that I hadn't sent him 2 pick-guards, a nut, and neck screws. I found this to be quite ridiculous....is it just me

He got a free neck and body.....shipped free, he had no financial investment, just the time it took due to my illness, and his inability to make up his mind and get the parts out.

You tell me.

 

[Jeronimofesto]

It may be just me, but I think all he deserves is a refund of his money and that is it. I guess he could be compensated a little bit for having sent you money and being without it for a small amount of time. By no means does he deserve a body and neck at no charge. I don't know all the details, but it just doesn't seem fair to you.

 

[Fetusyolk]

you should have sent him the neck and body of his dog or something. wat the ****?

It sounds like your problem, while i understand could be inconvenient and troublesome, was unavoidable on your part, and you gave the customer the full refund that they deserved. But a free neck and body? you've got to be kidding.

 

[Phil Mailloux]

You should have sent him the full refund plus all the parts he sent to you for the build (if he did send you anything)

Now he ended up with a free body and neck he can have someone else finish up for much less money. Plus you now lost your money invested in those parts and your time.

You got a pretty bad deal.

 

[Musiclogic]

I was at fault due to my health problems, thus why I gave the refund, but for him to demand the body and neck which I sent in INCOMPLETE form (finish not complete...gloss black lacquer over ASH)per his demand. I tried to be nice and give him the parts, but they always seem to want more. I have quit doing parts, and am only doing my mod work, and complete instruments as I have time. My shop is quite busy even with me only working part time.

Thanks for the input.

 

[bongomania]

I have no position in this, but here's the other side:
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=476352

 

[kb9wyz]

This is basic small claims law, and this won't vary by state. (Unless the amount of money exceeds the small claims threshold, in which case if he tries to take it court, they'll tell him to stick it.) You had a contract (either expressed or implied) to build him an instrument for $XXXX. If either side breaches a contract they are obligated to make the other party whole. You breached the contract. You made him whole. Since you have none of his money, all the work you did is legally your property.

The "young man" can take a long walk and off a short pier.

I would just look up the specific section in your state's law and e-mail it him, explaining that he has no right to the work you did.

If you feel evil, you can include the price of the unfinished work if he would like to purchase it from you.

People who try to rip off hard working folks, like yourself, really piss me off.

FYI: I had to learn this stuff for when I studied real estate appraisal. That's how I know this.

 

[Herrlster]

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=476352&

Is there a connection somehow?

EDIT: bongomania beat me to it.

 

[scottyd]

I'm in a similar situation (though not quite as bad) with a build that was shipped out via USPS. Unfortunately the customer never recieved the bass. USPS says they do not know where it is, I kept all of my records and receipts but they've apparently lost it. Insurance won't cover the total cost and God only knows how long the process of claiming it will take. Neither the customer or myself is to blame for the screw up. That said it will only cost me and that is the way it should be. The customer will get a full refund for his money. Maybe the bass will come back to me or the customer will recieve it, and hopefully if he does finally get it he is honest enough to let me know.

I do not agree that you should have sent the body and neck if you have already refunded the money. That puts you out of your labor which is just wrong. Once you refunded the money for the build that makes the build yours.:scowl:

 

[Skelf]

After the full refund and the return of any parts supplied by the guy you did not need to do any thing further as far as I can see. I don't think I would have sent him the body and neck as they no longer belong to him.

I did not know you had been unwell only noticed you were not about on the forum as often. I hope you make a full recovery and am sure you can do without this type of trouble.

 

[DWBass]

So he gets a full refund AND almost enough parts to build his own bass?? You sir, are a very generous man!

 

[Jeronimofesto]

This is basic small claims law, and this won't vary by state. (Unless the amount of money exceeds the small claims threshold, in which case if he tries to take it court, they'll tell him to stick it.) You had a contract (either expressed or implied) to build him an instrument for $XXXX. If either side breaches a contract they are obligated to make the other party whole. You breached the contract. You made him whole. Since you have none of his money, all the work you did is legally your property.

The "young man" can take a long walk and off a short pier.

I would just look up the specific section in your state's law and e-mail it him, explaining that he has no right to the work you did.

If you feel evil, you can include the price of the unfinished work if he would like to purchase it from you.

People who try to rip off hard working folks, like yourself, really piss me off.

FYI: I had to learn this stuff for when I studied real estate appraisal. That's how I know this.

Since I am guessing there was no contract specifying a date of completion, the law would require it to be "a reasonable amount of time" and this would be determined by a jury/arbitrator.

From reading the other side of the story, 18 month may be considered an unreasonable amount of time. Thus he would need to be compensated for that.

Does it mean he deserves a free neck and body? Not a chance.

On a side note, I got an email this morning saying how I have poor business practices and how 18 months it way too long and blah, blah, blah. I am afraid that someone has confused HJC Customs with JC Basses. Sadly I may lose business over this.

 

[mikeyswood]

Imagine what that money would be worth now if he had invested in the stock market 18 months ago

A full refund is more than fair in my opinion since he was upfront about health issues.

 

[Herrlster]

Since I am guessing there was no contract specifying a date of completion, the law would require it to be "a reasonable amount of time" and this would be determined by a jury/arbitrator.

From reading the other side of the story, 18 month may be considered an unreasonable amount of time. Thus he would need to be compensated for that.

Does it mean he deserves a free neck and body? Not a chance.

On a side note, I got an email this morning saying how I have poor business practices and how 18 months it way too long and blah, blah, blah. I am afraid that someone has confused HJC Customs with JC Basses. Sadly I may lose business over this.

That is horrible man. People should read things more carefully before they post and make themselves look like idiots.

 

[wilser]

without knowing all the details, but reading both sides of the story I've gotta say that you went over and above your responsabilities.

I gotta say I've been very blessed with my customers so far, very patient with my recent health issues, very understanding with my personal situation (part time) and very forgiving of the product allowing me to make it up to them where I didn't make the bar (or forgot about a spec) and still being satisfied with the overall experience. I'm sure I'll get a "bad" customer at one point and I hope I can have the patience and wisdom to deal with him in a fair manner and not lash out and send him to do the "pink flamingo" (if you haven't seen the movie, DON'T!).

 

[musicelectronix]

That is horrible man. People should read things more carefully before they post and make themselves look like idiots.

On top of that, why would someone (I am guessing not either parties, if it was, they would have known who to send ) send an e-mail or choose to mix up with any of these, let alone sending it to the wrong person. Weird days...

 

[lethargytartare]

You should send the customer an invoice for the body and neck -- parts and labor. I'd be curious to know the price of the deal -- the could affect some aspects of this, but really at the end of the day he'd have to show some form of damages from your non-performance/breach. But once you returned his money, you should never have sent him the partially complete product as well.

Asking for his money, and any and all fees he paid is reasonable. Asking for any of the work product is unreasonable. That you returned his template fees should have been the harshest aspect of this for you. Plus you lost some credibility in this community, which sucks, and which you'll have to work to repair. That's one of the risks inherent to running your own business.

Hopefully folks will have enough common sense to know you couldn't have WANTED this sale to go so badly! One good way to regain trust is to work on more structured and clearly defined terms for a while, until you rebuild that trust.

Best of luck!

ltt

Since I am guessing there was no contract specifying a date of completion, the law would require it to be "a reasonable amount of time" and this would be determined by a jury/arbitrator.

From reading the other side of the story, 18 month may be considered an unreasonable amount of time. Thus he would need to be compensated for that.

Does it mean he deserves a free neck and body? Not a chance.

On a side note, I got an email this morning saying how I have poor business practices and how 18 months it way too long and blah, blah, blah. I am afraid that someone has confused HJC Customs with JC Basses. Sadly I may lose business over this.

 

[ZombiCrow]

First, my apologies to JC Customs, whose name has been removed from my original thread. Because the luthier here emails from several different email address, one with "JC" in the name and the other with "Customs," I mistook one for the other.

Secondly, I never requested that he send me the parts he failed to deliver. I simply stated that he didn't include them, and that I was going to post about the experience on this forum. This was all after he sent me several nasty and insulting messages, which I did not return.

He claimed the instrument was "almost ready" in January, then he stated that it developed a check in the wood around April, giving me a 5-week estimate of repair time. The pictures he sent me of the instrument around this time show it in nearly the condition it arrived at my door in. He also boasted repeatedly not only about the Line6 bass project, but several others, and about how many projects he'd taken on. Why would someone in ill health, working two jobs, take on more work than he could handle, especially with a back-order of projects left unfinished?

Finally, as I've stated, I am both greatful and pleased not only with the amount of help JC gave me in the initial build stage, but also the knowledge he helped me gain while building the instrument. I am very thankful for my $350 back, as well. He didn't do everything he promised, but what he did do would be completely acceptable if it'd arrived 9 months or more sooner.

What I did not appreciate was the unneccesarily long wait between contact and updates, being strung along with emails and phone calls promising "just a few more weeks," and finally multiple uncalled-for messages that only served to display his true colors.

I'm also sure JC never meant for this to go badly. I'm not trying to ruin anything for him, just letting people know about my experience. Until the last four months or so, he seemed a very jovial, bass-loving gent with the best intentions; unfortunately we did not deliver on them.

 

[scottyd]

I am very thankful for my $350 back, as well. .

Are you serious? This whole deal is over $350.00!? Which was refunded along with the body and neck and you still start a thread to trash the man? I know you're frustrated and all but the deal you had with him is done and you got the better end of the stick. Wow.........

 

[lethargytartare]

Secondly, I never requested that he send me the parts he failed to deliver. I simply stated that he didn't include them, and that I was going to post about the experience on this forum.

Sorry dude, but in most circles, that's called a veiled threat. And personally I would interpret it as a direct attempt to blackmail him into giving you more free stuff. Seriously -- based on your desciription there.

This was all after he sent me several nasty and insulting messages, which I did not return.

Which is ******, and very much something the TB community should know about.

Why would someone in ill health, working two jobs, take on more work than he could handle, especially with a back-order of projects left unfinished?

That's not really for you to understand or approve. People do weird things in life, and get themselves in tricky spots. That's life.

I am very thankful for my $350 back, as well. He didn't do everything he promised, but what he did do would be completely acceptable if it'd arrived 9 months or more sooner.

Are you kidding me??? Now THAT'S something that amazes me. You feel entitled to a full refund AND the product simply because it was LATE? It sounds like you're saying it's a COMPLETE product that meets your original order. So you REALLY got away with a freebie -- and that makes it seem like this is all really about you feeling insulted.

Seriously, I hope he invoices you for the products. $350?!?! You got custom work for that, and feel like HE was in the wrong even though you walked away with your money AND his work? Sorry, but you are way out of line on this one.

I can't tell what's at stake here -- I can't imagine he built a body and neck from scratch for $350; did you send parts to him for modifications? Or did he order parts and mod them for you? Here, if you want to make good on this, pay him for the parts themselves, but not for any of his custom work -- his failure to deliver, he eats the costs there. That's fair. If they WERE completely custom, send 'em back. Not to mention all the shipping costs he appears to have eaten in this whole fiasco.

Sheesh...if I walked away with my order and my money, I'd be quietly jumping for joy...