Dealing with In-Ear Monitors?

[Hawkeye]

According to our sound engineer, some drummers are mounting the Buttkicker underneath their throne to lock-in better with the bass player.

This is coming full circle. Adding extra powered transducers that "feel" like a bass amp. Gee, what about just using an actual bass amp?

If you could get drummers to play a little quieter (I know this is possible as I AM a drummer) and get the guitarists to turn down (I know, that part is difficult) then achieving a nice mix with reasonable stage volume that the soundman can work with is not a problem.

My biggest problem is that the levels / tone / presentation and dynamics of your instrument are now totally out of your control and in the hands of the "happy amateurs" who man most church sound boards.

 

[seamonkey]

You can't hear what the audience hears anyhow. With an in ear, at least you have a chance of hearing what they're hearing.

Buttkickers are good 'cause the keep the drummer from playing too loud. The drummer can feel/hear the bass drum better and not boost the stage volume. For bass players, mounting one on a platform is good just to feel the notes - there's a lot of interaction that goes on based on how you feel the notes. Especially with a live drummer.

 

[Hawkeye]

You can't hear what the audience hears anyhow. With an in ear, at least you have a chance of hearing what they're hearing.

Buttkickers are good 'cause the keep the drummer from playing too loud. The drummer can feel/hear the bass drum better and not boost the stage volume. For bass players, mounting one on a platform is good just to feel the notes - there's a lot of interaction that goes on based on how you feel the notes. Especially with a live drummer.

Like I said, it seems like a lot of trouble to "emulate" the feel of a bass amp when all you have to do is use a bass amp. I don't want to turn this into a circular discussion, but how important is it for the performers to hear what the audience is hearing? Isn't it more important for the soundman to get the audience hearing what the band is hearing? Usually the band achieves a decent-enough stage mix on its own and "self-mixes". Everybody wants to hear everybody else. The audience should hear what is going down on the stage.

'Back in the day" it used to be that a rock / blues / folk band would use a fairly humble PA that would amplify just vox and the odd instrument (horns, acoustic guitars etc.) that needed reinforcement. The rest of the band would set amp levels so as to achieve a good overall mix. I remember going to dozens of concerts where this type of sound reinforcement was the norm and I always recall the sound being pretty good.

Now that we have mega P.A. setups the paradigm has been thrown on its ear and everybody on stage has to "turn down" now. It seems to be getting a lot more complicated without necessarily achieving any better sound.

I guess complexity increases disproportionately depending on the size of the venue. I still don't trust the majority of soundmen to get a decent sound out of my bass DI'd compared to the sound of my rig. IEM's just seem to me to be getting farther and farther away from the real thing so that you start to need add-ons like butt-kickers to get you back some "feel" so that you are in the game and back in the groove.

 

[Vic]

...how important is it for the performers to hear what the audience is hearing?

IMHO, it's not. In fact, most of my experience is band members don't. They want to hear just enough of everyone else, but more of themselves... especially vox for obvious reasons. This is why I think IEM's are great... you can get all that and save your hearing at the same time, AND not have it be dependent on where you are on stage.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not givin' up my bass amp, because I wanna' feel it, too, but I definitely see great value in IEM's... I go to bed every night with tinitis. I actually now regret what I did "back in the day".

Isn't it more important for the soundman to get the audience hearing what the band is hearing?

IMHO, no. The audience should hear what the band sounds like as a balanced whole... if this IS your stage mix, then I'll qualfiy that, but I think that'd be the exception, not the rule, but making this possible and practical is the theory behind the Bose PAS.

'Back in the day" ... humble PA that would amplify just vox and the odd instrument ... rest of the band would set amp levels so as to achieve a good overall mix. I remember going to dozens of concerts where this type of sound reinforcement was the norm and I always recall the sound being pretty good.

IMHO this only works for pretty small intimate venues, but yeah, if the band has the discipline, this can work. However, even medium sized clubs start to suffer tonal balance big time even just 50-100 feet away from the stage, which is why even a modest, but full PA can REALLY help.

Now that we have mega P.A. setups the paradigm has been thrown on its ear and everybody on stage has to "turn down" now. It seems to be getting a lot more complicated without necessarily achieving any better sound.

I think this is a good thing. Not that I'm about complication, but more that I'm about sound quality.

I don't know about you, but when overall levels are lower, I can actually hear "better" and be more inspired to play. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talkin' silly here... I still wanna' feel my bass, and the guitar players still need to be loud enough to get the proper "action" out of their cabs/guitar, and the drummer needs... etc. etc., but I know for a fact there are a lot of bands out there that play way too loud on stage, and ironically, it's because they can't hear themselves well enough, and they spiral into competitive audio hell. IEM's completely rid the world of this problem, which also solves the problem most production folks have with the PA "competing" with the stage mix out front, which, IMHO, is a cardinal sin. You're preventing the production folks from doing what you're paying them to do. Makes no sense to me. The ONLY downside to IEM's I can see is they require more monitor mixes to work best for everyone, which might be a PA equipment limitation.

I guess complexity increases disproportionately depending on the size of the venue.

IMHO, if you want the most people in your audience to have the best musical experience, this is unavoidable. It's just an audio thing.

I still don't trust the majority of soundmen to get a decent sound out of my bass DI'd compared to the sound of my rig.

IMHO, this is the crux of all your problems with the whole paradigm shift you're talking about, which includes the use of IEM's. However, that's not a problem with IEM's and the paradigm, it's a problem with the production folks... IMHO two SEPARATE problems. I've been complimented more on the sound of my bass far more with great PA support than when the stage mix was what the audience was hearing.

IEM's just seem to me to be getting farther and farther away from the real thing so that you start to need add-ons like butt-kickers to get you back some "feel" so that you are in the game and back in the groove.

IMHO, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I think it's proper use of BOTH. I will never play without a stage rig, and I bet most others feel the same way.

Sounds to me like all your objections are based on:

1.) IEM's are going to replace the stage rigs
2.) You don't think there are good production folks out there

IMHO, neither of these are true.

 

[Hawkeye]

IMHO, it's not. In fact, most of my experience is band members don't. They want to hear just enough of everyone else, but more of themselves... especially vox for obvious reasons. This is why I think IEM's are great... you can get all that and save your hearing at the same time, AND not have it be dependent on where you are on stage.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not givin' up my bass amp, because I wanna' feel it, too, but I definitely see great value in IEM's... I go to bed every night with tinitis. I actually now regret what I did "back in the day".

IMHO, no. The audience should hear what the band sounds like as a balanced whole... if this IS your stage mix, then I'll qualfiy that, but I think that'd be the exception, not the rule, but making this possible and practical is the theory behind the Bose PAS.

IMHO this only works for pretty small intimate venues, but yeah, if the band has the discipline, this can work. However, even medium sized clubs start to suffer tonal balance big time even just 50-100 feet away from the stage, which is why even a modest, but full PA can REALLY help.

I think this is a good thing. Not that I'm about complication, but more that I'm about sound quality.

I don't know about you, but when overall levels are lower, I can actually hear "better" and be more inspired to play. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not talkin' silly here... I still wanna' feel my bass, and the guitar players still need to be loud enough to get the proper "action" out of their cabs/guitar, and the drummer needs... etc. etc., but I know for a fact there are a lot of bands out there that play way too loud on stage, and ironically, it's because they can't hear themselves well enough, and they spiral into competitive audio hell. IEM's completely rid the world of this problem, which also solves the problem most production folks have with the PA "competing" with the stage mix out front, which, IMHO, is a cardinal sin. You're preventing the production folks from doing what you're paying them to do. Makes no sense to me. The ONLY downside to IEM's I can see is they require more monitor mixes to work best for everyone, which might be a PA equipment limitation.

IMHO, if you want the most people in your audience to have the best musical experience, this is unavoidable. It's just an audio thing.

IMHO, this is the crux of all your problems with the whole paradigm shift you're talking about, which includes the use of IEM's. However, that's not a problem with IEM's and the paradigm, it's a problem with the production folks... IMHO two SEPARATE problems. I've been complimented more on the sound of my bass far more with great PA support than when the stage mix was what the audience was hearing.

IMHO, it doesn't have to be one or the other. I think it's proper use of BOTH. I will never play without a stage rig, and I bet most others feel the same way.

Sounds to me like all your objections are based on:

1.) IEM's are going to replace the stage rigs
2.) You don't think there are good production folks out there

IMHO, neither of these are true.

Good opinions all, Vic. True, I was looking at an "all or nothing" scenario. If IEM's and responsibly-used stage rigs can co-exist, I don't want to stand in the way of progress. I also don't want technology to stand in the way of a good groove.

 

[quallabone]

Good opinions all, Vic. True, I was looking at an "all or nothing" scenario. If IEM's and responsibly-used stage rigs can co-exist, I don't want to stand in the way of progress. I also don't want technology to stand in the way of a good groove.

I thought it would be worse when I first went to a no amplifier setup.

I think the only reason I'm ok with this setup is because my in ears sound absoluely fantastic. If the tone wasn't there I wouldn't be happy. My cans give around 25-30db isolation, so my mix is completely controlled by me.

Like many other musicians I think that wearing IEM's has helped my hearing as well as my musical sensitivity to the people I share the stage with. When you have to rely more on listening than feeling you tend to listen to different parts of the mix that really fill in the sound.

As a sound tech I also prefer IEM's. Mixing is quite a bit easier when the band is controlling its own monitor levels. Having nothing but drums/guitar coming off of the stage is a real breath of fresh air.


For those interested my IEM setup is this,

Bass--->Aguilar 659--->Board--->Aviom A-Net system for full band---->Shure PSM 600 Wireless--->Ultimate Ears UE5-Pro

Nothing beats it.

 

[Vic]

Good opinions all, Vic. True, I was looking at an "all or nothing" scenario. If IEM's and responsibly-used stage rigs can co-exist, I don't want to stand in the way of progress. I also don't want technology to stand in the way of a good groove.

I don't believe in "all or nothing". IMHO, professionals with a properly qualified support crew should be able to do whatever is necessary to support the best and most inspired music (which includes all cases... IEM-only, rig-only, and both). IMHO, there's absolutely no defensible position why they can't co-exist... especially after having used IEM's this way personally, and you and I are totally on the same page regarding groove... IMHO, without that, you only have notes... not music... in which case, there's no purpose to it at all.

 

[KellyDuke]

I thought it would be worse when I first went to a no amplifier setup.

I think the only reason I'm ok with this setup is because my in ears sound absoluely fantastic. If the tone wasn't there I wouldn't be happy. My cans give around 25-30db isolation, so my mix is completely controlled by me.

Like many other musicians I think that wearing IEM's has helped my hearing as well as my musical sensitivity to the people I share the stage with. When you have to rely more on listening than feeling you tend to listen to different parts of the mix that really fill in the sound.

As a sound tech I also prefer IEM's. Mixing is quite a bit easier when the band is controlling its own monitor levels. Having nothing but drums/guitar coming off of the stage is a real breath of fresh air.


For those interested my IEM setup is this,

Bass--->Aguilar 659--->Board--->Aviom A-Net system for full band---->Shure PSM 600 Wireless--->Ultimate Ears UE5-Pro

Nothing beats it.

Hey everyone! Kelly from Ultimate Ears here and my first post as a talkbass-er! Hey, if anyone has questions about our products or need assistance, I'm here. I can get you dialed into the right direction.

We're based in Irvine, Ca and our doors are always open if you'd like to come and take a tour of our lab. Just let me know and I can set something up. It's a pretty cool get-up! Hope everyone has a good 4th!

 

[wilser]

I've been playing with one of the worship bands at my church for 2 years now. They use the aviom setup with sure E4's. I HATE them ...no no, I LOATHE them! Even with my amp at very low volume, I very much prefer to feel air moving and floor shaking than those sucky in ear monitors and aviom. Maybe it's the way they have them setup, they're noisy and sound lifeless. Monday was the first time I rehearsed with them using my amp because my earphones were damaged and they didn't have a spare, since I play mostly fretless I NEED to hear myself. The difference was clear. I convinced the worship leader to allow me to use my amp for onstage monitoring ...granted I keep my volume to myself.

 

[robnatt]

I've been playing with one of the worship bands at my church for 2 years now. They use the aviom setup with sure E4's. I HATE them ...no no, I LOATHE them! Even with my amp at very low volume, I very much prefer to feel air moving and floor shaking than those sucky in ear monitors and aviom. Maybe it's the way they have them setup, they're noisy and sound lifeless. Monday was the first time I rehearsed with them using my amp because my earphones were damaged and they didn't have a spare, since I play mostly fretless I NEED to hear myself. The difference was clear. I convinced the worship leader to allow me to use my amp for onstage monitoring ...granted I keep my volume to myself.

There system should not be noisy at all, unless you have noisy instruments. I would look into that.

I like to use the IEM to hear the worship leader, piano, & acoustic guitar. The others I keep low volume & pan right. I usually leave the right IEM out anyway to hear more thump from my 4x10.

 

[quallabone]

I've been playing with one of the worship bands at my church for 2 years now. They use the aviom setup with sure E4's. I HATE them ...no no, I LOATHE them! Even with my amp at very low volume, I very much prefer to feel air moving and floor shaking than those sucky in ear monitors and aviom. Maybe it's the way they have them setup, they're noisy and sound lifeless. Monday was the first time I rehearsed with them using my amp because my earphones were damaged and they didn't have a spare, since I play mostly fretless I NEED to hear myself. The difference was clear. I convinced the worship leader to allow me to use my amp for onstage monitoring ...granted I keep my volume to myself.

Noisy avioms don't really exist. The problem would be between the instruments and the input module. It doesn't sound like you hate AVIOMS it sounds like you hate bad In-Ears. I used to use E5's and much like you I hated everything I heard through them. As soon as I moved to the Ultimate Ears setup everything made sense.

Blaming Aviom for hearing "Noisy, lifeless" things in your in ears is like blaming your patchchord for wrong notes. The 2 have nothing to do with each other.

 

[quallabone]

I usually leave the right IEM out anyway to hear more thump from my 4x10.

DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!
DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!

I can not stress enough how much you should NOT DO THAT!

You're going to severely damage your hearing by using only one IEM. To compete with the stage volume and the ambient sound in your right ear you'll naturally turn your IEM's up way louder than you should. I have a friend who really hurt one ear by doing this for a while.

DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!

The best solution is to use a system like the UE-5AMBIENT from Ultimate Ears. They let you swap out reduction filters so that you can blend your IEM signal with what's going on in the room.

Think about it. If you don't want to buy different monitors I definately recommend either using no monitors or using a standard floor wedge. Either way will be better for you in the long run.

 

[chrisp2u]

For anyone considering the Shure E5's, I'd strongly suggest checking out the Westone UM2's. They're dual, and many people say they sound as good as (if not better than) the E5's... and are almost half the price. I've been extremely impressed with them so far (way, way better than the E3's I had previously). Planning on getting the ear molds soon which also suposedly makes a big difference (especially for the bass, which is already pretty good). They also offer the ES2's, which are completely custom fit, and the ES3's which are 3-way.
---
c

 

[robnatt]

DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!
DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!!!

I can not stress enough how much you should NOT DO THAT!

You're going to severely damage your hearing by using only one IEM. To compete with the stage volume and the ambient sound in your right ear you'll naturally turn your IEM's up way louder than you should. I have a friend who really hurt one ear by doing this for a while.

DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!

The best solution is to use a system like the UE-5AMBIENT from Ultimate Ears. They let you swap out reduction filters so that you can blend your IEM signal with what's going on in the room.

Think about it. If you don't want to buy different monitors I definately recommend either using no monitors or using a standard floor wedge. Either way will be better for you in the long run.

Overall volume is still low, both stage & IEM. We are also spaced apart fairly well. When I say "thump", I really mean low end that I can't get from the IEM. The 1st thing I do is set the max for the IEM at about 10-11 o'clock and adjust everything accordingly.

I appreciate your concern for my hearing. It's the most important asset in this business.

 

[JansenW]

I usually leave the right IEM out anyway to hear more thump from my 4x10.

DON'T DO THAT!!!!!!!! I can not stress enough how much you should NOT DO THAT!

I agree, don't do that. Studies have shown that you tend to turn up the remaining IEM 3-6 db to compensate for the removed IEM.

This is dangerous and does cause hearing loss. Use a vibrating platform like the Buttkicker if you want to feel the punch of your bass.

 

[Rocky55]

My old band went to IEM a couple years ago. Well, the drummer, lead singer/rhythm guitar and me did. The lead guitar player wouldn't even consider it. It took a bit of adjustment, but after the first set, I was sold. We were using my MixWizard mixer for FOH & monitors, and I had 4 x 31-band EQ for mons. The drummer just took his feed flat, but I boosted a bit in the 60-125 range and again around 2K. I didn't use an amp, but we had subs and I could feel the punch. We found a lot of advantages going this way, most of which (probably all) have been covered here:
- I could finally hear EVERYONE perfectly
- I could hear everything I was playing perfectly
- I became a much better player, much more accurate
- The others felt the same about their playing/singing
- No more feedback to deal with
- Setup was MUCH faster, and less monitors/amps to carry around
- Stage volume was drastically reduced
- FOH sound became much cleaner and easier to manage
- Played on bigger stages with soundmen and would take a split off their snake and VOILÀ... soundcheck is done!

DISADVANTAGES:
- isolation from the crowd. It was tough to take requests from the hotties that would come to the side of the stage (we were a cover band)
- didn't feel the big air movement from my amp
- batteries... although I used Duracell NiMH rechargeables and I could get 2-3 full hour sets out of one. I bought 4 and rotated them. My drummer used my wireless setup when he did a gig on guitar last week and he can go about 8-9 hours on a battery since he keeps his volume way down.

I since left the band as they were too busy for me, but they split up a few months back and I do the odd gig with a couple of the guys. I also sub in with 4 other local bands where I don't always get my own mix and where the others wouldn't hear me if I didn't use an amp, so I use my rig then. I plan on starting to use the IEM again soon, but I just love listening to the new rig so much (DB750/NV610) that I'm having a hard time not using it. Oh yeah, I use a Shure PSM600 with the E3s (with yellow foamies), but will likely be getting some custom molds done soon.

EDIT: I have E5s coming this week.

Sorry for the long post, but really like the IEM.

Rocky

 

[ballison]

I just wanted to say that the aviom system is absolutely AMAZING we use them in the studios here at berklee and they make things so much easier. if only they didnt cost a fortune haha I would kill to rehearse with in-ears

 

[ptrick63]

Our church band had our first rehearsal last night using the Aviom system. Our problem has always been having a "wall of mud" from the guitars and bass because of the boomy room we play in.

First impressions are that the PA mix has never sounded better, every instrument is defined and best of all, controllable from the board.

As far as the monitor mix, it is definitely an adjustment. Our lead player hates his sound without the speaker cab(of course he does design guitar amps so he's prejudiced), and one thing about this system is that you hear every little mistake that you make. In the long run that will be good for all of us to tighten up our playing.

I can live with the bass sound that's in the monitor mix, just wish that it sounded as good as it does through the PA. It does seem that you can overdrive the Axiom quite easily so there is a bit of fine tuning and tweaking that you have to do to get an acceptable sound.

I love being able to control my own monitor mix, and mute or turn down instruments as I want. And the bass has never sounded so good in the main mix as it does now, so that's a plus!

Just my two cents...

 

[R Upsomegrub]

Ptrick: Is there some way you can isolate the guitarist's amp and mic it? The head sound guy at the church I play at will do this for those that want it.

 

[origami]

my church is in the process of moving to in-ears. it's been pretty hit and miss so far. they had the great idea of testing this out right before the last service and not at rehearsal earlier. bad news bears!

the reason my church wants to go to this is because my church rents out a large school cafeteria with a stage for it's sunday and holiday services. so my church has to set up and tear down sound for each sunday. they figure they can save time/energy on setting up all the monitors/cables, etc and the sound issues with that. our worship leader likes the stage dry, we even have a drum sheild, and the guitar amps miced and isolated in a room, just off stage left.

before all this. i used to bring a small bass amp and play it low on stage and DI. i still feel this is best approach (my tone, my contol on sage monitoring, myself and the drummer hear me guarenteed.) i love plug and play.. so simple! no fuss. they kept saying that it was bleeding into the vocal mics. i was turned on one or two.

once i got an active EQ bass (EBMM stingray 5), i finally started going straight DI and using a 15" wedge monitor. this is hit and miss. sometimes the soundman mixes me way too low, or even too hot and i have no control. ahhh, oddly now i was louder than ever onstage, but without my tone.

so we went to in-ears last sunday. the ear-buds would not stay no matter what size earbuds i used, i finally made them bring me a monitor 5 minutes before the service stated or it wasn't going to happen.

i am going to attempt to use my own headphones this sunday, but i need i lille isolation since i physically stand near the drums on stage, and the guitars are in a room next to me so they can be isolated. but i basically hear all the bleed from the drums and guitar room.

what a pain, i hope there is better luck this sunday.

mm