dealing with unrealistic demands rant

[Steadfast]

Soundman issues are a Catch22. I have been playing since 1975 and have played small to 30,000 + audiences as a saxman.

Large venues you are stuck and dependent. Be nice and be early. Sound on stage always sux at large venues and is not always indicative of how it sounds in the audience.

Smaller venues I carry my own Bose L1 system for sax and carry my own amps for bass. I have learned soundmen rarely know how to eq the sax. Usually when I am early and NICE....the soundman is willing to set the board flat and let me use my own special sax pedal board for eq in large venues. If they aren't willing---so what....I am going to sound good no matter what they do as long as there is adequate volume.

On bass--I haven't played for anything larger than 500 people. I have been connected to FOH but my rig is so loud they never turn up the FOH.

Slap your guitar boy in the back of the head and tell him to find a safe space because nobody cares about another guitarist and his feelings.

 

[lfmn16]

Nobody cares what the opening band wants. Someone needs to help the guitarist with a reality check.

+1

Especially when there are multiple bands. My personal philosophy is that when I'm opening, I take what I can get. When I headline, I expect more input into the sound (and then take what I can get ).

 

[morgan138]

My experience has been the opposite of most here I guess. You absolutely can bring your own sound guy to most clubs or "prestigious venues". Many acts I have worked with do it. Sure, that guy will have to cooperate with the headliners guy or the house guy. But it's very common to bring your own if you are a successful act.

Yeah, this has been my experience a bunch of times, whether we were an opening band or the headliner. Assuming the person you bring gets there on time and knows what they're doing, the regular engineer will be stoked to have your set off. As long as you're bringing an actual pro engineer (i.e. not a buddy who'll need to be baby-sat to prevent them from breaking things) and you let the venue know ahead of time, this should be no problem.

Hell, if you're playing locally the person you're bringing/hiring probably knows the regular staff/system already—again, assuming you're bringing a working pro sound engineer.

 

[two fingers]

Hell, if you're playing locally the person you're bringing/hiring probably knows the regular staff/system already.

Great point. There is this one guy around here who has run sound in pretty much every building in the Mid-Atlantic region. He walks in and they all bro hug and get to work.

Other than being a chain smoker who has no problem puffing right into your face he's my favorite one. The fact that he's a bass player help our relationshipship out quite a bit. I both sing and play pretty hard. I've also filled in with just about every act you can imagine around here at some point. He walks in and sees me setting up and says "Oh, crap. What kind of compressors am I working with today? This guy is gonna work 'em out!" But at the end of the show he always says "I love how you drop the hammer on a bass string." so I guess it works out.

 

[morgan138]

I guess I was thinking of shows where either you're local (so you and/or your engineer know people at the venue) or where you're coming from out of town but either headlining or enough of a draw that they don't mind accommodating you.

If you're an opening band in a strange town, bringing your own engineer might be a tougher sell...

 

[Siggy]

You should of called for a Waaambulance!

 

[Kevorargh]

I've worked with many people like your guitar player - the fiddle player I played with was notorious for being uptight about his sound - even after an awesome gig on a festival stage. The guitar player/BL of that band was also a sound person and loved to get into people's faces and correct them about how to get a 'correct' sound. I still remember the gig we did when he told the sound person that his DI was crap and he should chuck into the pier and the sound guy got into an argument with him in front of the audience calling the BL a pain in the ass. That helped for a good sound for our show (that was also the show where my Warwick pups were picking up a classic rock radio station the whole time we played - fun times).

Anyway, you can try and get your own sound person and hope the venues will let you guys use the person. Guitar Crybaby can try and work with the sound people at the venue - or you can mix yourselves through your own board and send the sound guy a stereo feed from your own board. For the acoustic acts I was part of, that worked, but for rock bands and drums, maybe not so much. I would also expect that would go over like a lead balloon with the venue but I have seen some acts do it.

 

[Steadfast]

It can't be easy being the soundman for a multi-band event. Just think about it for a sec.

Every lead guitarist and vocalist is an egocentric nightmare inflated by their flatulent ego. If I were a soundman I would probably blow off most everyone too. No way you can remember a bunch whiners "views" on how things are supposed to sound.

 

[DirtDog]

I play in a band that is starting to get better gigs and gain some traction. Our guitar player has had two bad sound man experiences in a row and is insisting that he won't play any more gigs-including those already booked, unless we have our own person mixing and setting up that "knows the band's sound" because "we deserve the best". I have pointed out that an equal share of our take wouldn't be enough to hire even a marginally competent person. His response was pretty childish and personal and insinuated that I didn't care how we sounded. Two of the booked gigs are at pretty prestigious venues known for stellar sound where we will be opening for popular touring acts. In my experience, venues that have their own PA and sound guy don't tend to let folks they don't know near the soundboard. Cancelling on short notice would not be very helpful with getting future gigs to say the least. I am too old and too impatient to deal with this sort of soap opera garbage and am strongly considering moving on. He is far more essential to the band from a musical perspective than I am and the band would likely call it a day if he left. I have plenty of other low-drama playing opportunities to keep me busy.

I'd like to know what the two bad sound man experiences in a row were and if your future gigs will involve the same soundman(men).

Like, how bad was it for him at these last two gigs - non-stop feedback, muddy mix, too loud, couldn't hear himself? Was the guitarist able to communicate his concerns in a professional manner at the time? As a result did your overall performance suck and/or did the crowd even notice? It would also be interesting how your guitarist defines "the best". Until you know what both of those ends of the spectrum are anything anyone in the band does (hire people, throw money at it, bitch and moan, rage quit), it's all guess work.

How can the guitarist be assured that bringing in your own personal soundman will be any better than what the venue supplies?

 

[Engle]

It can't be easy being the soundman for a multi-band event. Just think about it for a sec.

Every lead guitarist and vocalist is an egocentric nightmare inflated by their flatulent ego. If I were a soundman I would probably blow off most everyone too. No way you can remember a bunch whiners "views" on how things are supposed to sound.

My band and my daughter's band are playing a multi-band fundraiser on Sunday. Before that I think we'll be having a talk with the kid's band about the soundman's role and how they need to work with him, not against him.

 

[Medicine Man]

I think lots of "bad sound guy" experiences are the result of less than ideal monitor mixes. Pros understand you don't always get an amazing sound on stage (as the opening act, esp), and are willing to shelf their prima donna preferences for the good of the show. I can't tell you how many shows I played that sounded like a turd on stage but great in the house. Worry about putting on the show.

 

[LowActionHero]

If the sound guy is getting paid he probably has a boss. That boss is not likely to be OK with him screwing up a mix just because he didn't like a guitarist's attitude. Not on a regular basis.
Be cool with the sound guy, try to hint that you're NOT 'one of those guys', cross your fingers and hope for the best. It's all you can do.

 

[BooDoggie]

I used to work sound and play bass in what was the best band in our city. (No I'm not telling.) An opportunity arose to acquire one of the best bass players that I have ever had the opportunity to work with. From that point I became the sound guy, and I did my best to make the band sound the best I could with the equipment I had wherever we played.
We were given the opportunity to open a show for Billy Ray Cyrus. (Long before Hanna Montana became the slut of the south.) The show was at a very large venue in front of more than 10,000 people. Their sound engineer was more than happy to hand over full control of the sound system to me when our band played. He helped me get everything set up during sound check, showed me where the effects and other needed controls were on the 96 channel console they brought and then politely stepped aside and let me completely control our bands sound without interference. It all depends on the sound company's policies and whether it is a union venue or not. Union run venues we played would not even let me bring my own equipment onto the stage. They did everything but play the show for us.

Our guitar player has had two bad sound man experiences in a row and is insisting that he won't play any more gigs-including those already booked, unless we have our own person mixing and setting up that "knows the band's sound" because "we deserve the best".

Oh... and yes their are "sound guys" that don't know the difference between 4 kHz and 40 Hz. All they know is that they have a lot of money invested in all of this assume gear that can set off a seismograph in the next county and they want to use it to impress themselves and others. Their is a guy that I know locally that owns a crap load of sound gear and hires out to local festivals and events. He cannot even hear well without hearing aids. If he has a problem with his system or changes out a power amp, he calls me to fix it. Just last month he asked me why his monitors sounded so muffled. I found that every one of the horns in his monitors were burned out, and he couldn't tell what the problem was. So... ???

I have pointed out that an equal share of our take wouldn't be enough to hire even a marginally competent person.

^ This is exactly what I did. I took my responsibility very seriously. I read books and really studied the technical side of what it takes to make "good" sound. At one point I could identify a feedback frequency just by the sound of it and correct it immediately. There are too many aspects of why sound does what it does in different situations to really get into that.
Having your own sound guy does have advantages when it come to subtle things like adding different effects at various parts during a particular song or songs or using things like a vocal echo at just the right moment for a certain effect.
Knowing the bands "sound" is really not the way it works though. The sound perceived by your audience is never the same from one day to another. It is never the same form one venue to another. And it is diffidently never the same from one PA system to another.

His response was pretty childish and personal and insinuated that I didn't care how we sounded.

He is a guitar player, know for their "soap opera garbage" not a sound engineer. Ask him to pick up a copy of the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook and read it until he completely understands everything in it then he will be qualified to competently critique the bands sound at any given time or venue...

I'm sorry... I didn't intend to write a book, I just get carried away when responding to some of the posts here. I still remember all of the drama that goes with trying to merge all of the egos and find a balance where knowledge, talent and opportunity can come together to make awesome music for ALL to enjoy...

 

[mambo4]

IMHO to many players get wrapped up in preserving MY SOUND
for most working bands gigging is an imperfect endeavor,
the variables are just too great to have that kind of control
and as one drummer put it, "it's not a hill to die on"

if your band is well rehearsed and can balance your sound ,
any competent sound man will be able to make you sound decent.
if your band is well rehearsed you can endure sub optimal playing situations
no need to ruin pretty good in pursuit of perfection

 

[Oddly]

Slap your guitar boy in the back of the head and tell him to find a safe space because nobody cares about another guitarist and his feelings.

There's some good advice in this thread but honestly, I'd start with this.

 

[brianrost]

For pete's sake...this guy needs to man up. Anyone who's been gigging more than a year has had bad sound gigs. You talk to the sound man and try to get the best sound you can. Then you just STFU and play.

 

[Lowbrow]

A pro venue should allow a band's sound person to run the board if so requested -- at least for larger-name headliners. IME, crabby soundpersons have been known to try and throw their weight around with smaller and especially local acts -- they may consider it an insult to be replaced behind the board, but they can't mess with the headliner generally. That is not a rule, only a bad-case scenario.

In respect to your request for advice/empathy: your guitarist is a weenie. Anybody with 6 gigs under their belt ought to have learned to accept the fact that on-stage sound often amounts to nothing more than a noise and a beat. This is why you rehearse: it allows you to depend on your preparedness rather than relying on a perfect sonic experience on stage.

 

[Steadfast]

....and...even a great soundman can't make a crappy guitarist sound "great."

 

[andruca]

Your onstage experience has nothing to do with what the audience is hearing. I'll trust the house's tech every time. And even in higher profile bands I've giggled with who could afford their own sound guys they worked shoulder to shoulder with the local sound people in charge.

Those who fantasize about hearing a monitor mix as if it was a studio mix are condemned to live frustrated and not enjoy gigs. Advice your guitarist to ask for just kick, snare, lead vocal, 2nd guitar and own voice in the monitor mix and specifically urge him to put an accent on enjoying gigs. Lately for me this implied relying on less and less gadgetry and technicalities, thus getting my attention back to the basics of artistry in making music. Unless the sound guy victim play is part of his enjoyment routine, in such case, move on.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

I guarantee you that any bigger venue's sound guy is going to let anyone near their gear unless it's the headliner's sound guy (if they have one and have enough clout). Sounds to me like your guitar player is being a child about it if I refused to play because I didn't have a good experience with the sound from where I am on stage (which btw isn't what the crowd hears) I would have walked on many gigs. Tell him to be glad he doesn't play something like an upright bass which many sound guys just don't know how to deal with.