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Depth without rate/speed?

Dominick C.

Guest
Jul 2, 2012
860
945
Austin, Tx
Disclosures
I don't like mean people or mean comments....
maybe this exists, maybe not. Maybe I m the only one that does this?

I am not a fan of chorus, but I love depth. I really like having a chorus pedal for that option alone, just to dial in a little depth. Is there a pedal that just adds depth like a chorus without all the rotational/modulation/speed/rate/under-watery type stuff?
 
I guess just a really slow rate works. I was just wondering it there was just a depth pedal. Same bulbous kind of warming depth you would get from a chorus. Seems like it would make for a neat pedal for those of us that don't really like chorus that much.
 
maybe this exists, maybe not. Maybe I m the only one that does this?

I am not a fan of chorus, but I love depth. I really like having a chorus pedal for that option alone, just to dial in a little depth. Is there a pedal that just adds depth like a chorus without all the rotational/modulation/speed/rate/under-watery type stuff?

How about just getting a nice delay? Chorus is pretty much delay+modulation, so if it is the modulation you don't like, just grab a straight up delay pedal. :)
 
maybe this exists, maybe not. Maybe I m the only one that does this?

I am not a fan of chorus, but I love depth. I really like having a chorus pedal for that option alone, just to dial in a little depth. Is there a pedal that just adds depth like a chorus without all the rotational/modulation/speed/rate/under-watery type stuff?

From the Tech 21 Bass Boost Chorus product page:

"Detune alters the choral voicing up or down, giving you a chorus sound without modulation when Speed and Depth are set at minimum."

+1 to what FilterFunk said. That's exactly what the Tech 21 BBC can do, detune without the modulation. You can also get that with the Iron Ether Polytope and the Strymon Möbius. I had a Möbius and I have my 2nd BBC because I love the sound of chorus, but I HATE the warble of regular chorus. Although, you can get relatively close on some chorus pedals by turning the speed knob all the way down.
 
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Turning the speed down has been my trick in the past. I had a polytope for a while, just didn't sound quite right for me. Always felt a little too processed. My favorite was the Carl Martin Bass Chorus, but it is just too damn big, especially since I only used it for depth.....
 
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I think that is what you are looking for.

Luxe_Anti-Chorus_Top_large.jpg
 
How about just getting a nice delay? Chorus is pretty much delay+modulation, so if it is the modulation you don't like, just grab a straight up delay pedal. :)

"D-1"

Bingo!

BR – Right on the money. OP, you should just get a delay capable of delay times that match that of chorus or possibly even as short as a flanger's.

Here's a good explanation of the psychoacoustic effect of modulation's delay times of various such effects from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], of particular note is the range of delay where the sound changes from seemingly "one event" to perceiving "two events" (30 milliseconds):

"The Haas Effect

One of the coolest things about the Flanger/Doubler is that it has a built-in doubling effect. To understand exactly what this is, we have to start at the beginning with the Haas Effect. The Haas Effect is a very useful psychoacoustic theory that states that a delay of 40 milliseconds or less (depending on which text book you read - sometimes it’s noted as 30 milliseconds) is not perceived as a distinct event. That means that if a delay on a snare drum was set to 50 milliseconds, you would hear two separate events - the initial snare hit, then the delay. But if you set the delay to less than 30 milliseconds, the two would blend together and you’d hear them both as a single event.

This is important because it means that a short delay of less than 30 milliseconds can be used to thicken a sound that seems a bit thin, or it can be used to “stereoize” a mono track by panning the dry track to one side and the delayed to the other. Regardless of how you use it, the Haas Effect is a very powerful, if sometimes overlooked tool in your mixing toolbox."

Useful delay settings from SoS:

"Slap-Back Delay: 20-80mS delay, no feedback.

Tunnel Echo/Resonator:
2-10mS, feedback as high as possible without going unstable.

Tempo Delay:
60/bpm gives you the delay time of 1 bar in seconds. Divide this delay time by four to give you the delay time per quarter note.

Echo:
100-300mS with feedback. The higher the feedback level, the more repeat echoes.

Vibrato:
3-10mS, dry signal off, modulation rate 3-8Hz, depth set by ear.

Phasing:
3-10mS, mix control 50/50, modulation rate 3-8Hz, depth set by ear. Try Feedback Invert if you have it.

Flanging:
5-50mS, mix control 50/50, modulation rate 3-8Hz, depth set by ear. Increase feedback to make effect more dramatic. Try Feedback Invert if you have it.

Chorus:
30-100mS, mix control 50/50, modulation 3-8Hz, depth set by ear. Little or no feedback. Increasing feedback creates a rotary speaker effect."

PS: Another tidbit from SoS:
"• PHASE INVERT
And now that mysterious phase invert button or parameter that your unit may or may not have; the effect of this is most noticeable on effects that use a very short delay time, particularly flanging. By inverting the phase of the signal fed back to the input, it allows different harmonics to be accentuated by the filtering process, and so gives a choice of two types of tonal coloration, one usually sounding thinner than the other; which one you use is entirely a matter of personal choice. On longer delay times, the invert facility will produce little or no subjective change to the sound."


I'm geeking out here :wacky:, 'tis a very interesting topic to me. :smug:



For your reverb, I'll suggest getting one that doesn't affect the low end, only the mids and highs get the effect. Even better if it has pre-delay settings that you can muck about with. Depending on how you're intending to use your reverb, you could set the pre-delay longer for making it sound like a bigger hall/space.

Another cool trick is to put reverb only on the delay trails (still keeping that short chorus/flanger delay setting), not on the dry signal.
That ought to fatten things up for you while retaining clarity and pitch definition. :thumbsup:
 
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Maybe detuning is depth and I don't know what am am trying to describe, but it is not that sound. I'm talking the depth knob on a normal chorus pedal. Just kinds fattens things up, literally adds a sense of depth to the sound.

It's the depth of the detuning that the depth knob is controlling so I'm pretty sure what you are talking about is detune. There is a detune in the Zoom MS-60B that is pretty nice and has a depth control unlike the luxe. I don't know who else makes a detune pedal but 90% certain that detune is what you are looking for.
 
Maybe detuning is depth and I don't know what am am trying to describe, but it is not that sound. I'm talking the depth knob on a normal chorus pedal. Just kinds fattens things up, literally adds a sense of depth to the sound.
On a standard chorus effect unit, depth and rate are two parameters of the same modulator - depth is the amplitude and rate is the frequency of an LFO that is processing your sound. If there is no rate (literally a frequency of 0 Hz) there will be no depth either - setting the amplitude of frequency 0 is like turning up the volume on your stereo while you're not playing any music on it.
 
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It's the depth of the detuning that the depth knob is controlling so I'm pretty sure what you are talking about is detune. There is a detune in the Zoom MS-60B that is pretty nice and has a depth control unlike the luxe. I don't know who else makes a detune pedal but 90% certain that detune is what you are looking for.
I am excellent when it comes to not knowing what I am talking about.
On a standard chorus effect unit, depth and rate are two parameters of the same modulator - depth is the amplitude and rate is the frequency of an LFO that is processing your sound. If there is no rate (literally a frequency of 0 Hz) there will be no depth either - setting the amplitude of frequency 0 is like turning up the volume on your stereo while you're not playing any music on it.
I get what you are saying, it makes sense. I was referring to rate as speed, probably another instance of not properly expressing myself. So if I apply what you said to my thought process I understand this as: without at least a slow speed (frequency of lfo) no sound would be produced from the depth (amplitude) setting. So at least a little rate is needed to achieve that chorus depth I am looking for.

Or did I completely miss the boat?
 
"D-1"

Bingo!

BR – Right on the money. OP, you should just get a delay capable of delay times that match that of chorus or possibly even as short as a flanger's.

Here's a good explanation of the psychoacoustic effect of modulation's delay times of various such effects from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed], of particular note is the range of delay where the sound changes from seemingly "one event" to perceiving "two events" (30 milliseconds):

"The Haas Effect

One of the coolest things about the Flanger/Doubler is that it has a built-in doubling effect. To understand exactly what this is, we have to start at the beginning with the Haas Effect. The Haas Effect is a very useful psychoacoustic theory that states that a delay of 40 milliseconds or less (depending on which text book you read - sometimes it’s noted as 30 milliseconds) is not perceived as a distinct event. That means that if a delay on a snare drum was set to 50 milliseconds, you would hear two separate events - the initial snare hit, then the delay. But if you set the delay to less than 30 milliseconds, the two would blend together and you’d hear them both as a single event.

This is important because it means that a short delay of less than 30 milliseconds can be used to thicken a sound that seems a bit thin, or it can be used to “stereoize” a mono track by panning the dry track to one side and the delayed to the other. Regardless of how you use it, the Haas Effect is a very powerful, if sometimes overlooked tool in your mixing toolbox."

Useful delay settings from SoS:

"Slap-Back Delay: 20-80mS delay, no feedback.

Tunnel Echo/Resonator:
2-10mS, feedback as high as possible without going unstable.

Tempo Delay:
60/bpm gives you the delay time of 1 bar in seconds. Divide this delay time by four to give you the delay time per quarter note.

Echo:
100-300mS with feedback. The higher the feedback level, the more repeat echoes.

Vibrato:
3-10mS, dry signal off, modulation rate 3-8Hz, depth set by ear.

Phasing:
3-10mS, mix control 50/50, modulation rate 3-8Hz, depth set by ear. Try Feedback Invert if you have it.

Flanging:
5-50mS, mix control 50/50, modulation rate 3-8Hz, depth set by ear. Increase feedback to make effect more dramatic. Try Feedback Invert if you have it.

Chorus:
30-100mS, mix control 50/50, modulation 3-8Hz, depth set by ear. Little or no feedback. Increasing feedback creates a rotary speaker effect."

PS: Another tidbit from SoS:
"• PHASE INVERT
And now that mysterious phase invert button or parameter that your unit may or may not have; the effect of this is most noticeable on effects that use a very short delay time, particularly flanging. By inverting the phase of the signal fed back to the input, it allows different harmonics to be accentuated by the filtering process, and so gives a choice of two types of tonal coloration, one usually sounding thinner than the other; which one you use is entirely a matter of personal choice. On longer delay times, the invert facility will produce little or no subjective change to the sound."


I'm geeking out here :wacky:, 'tis a very interesting topic to me. :smug:



For your reverb, I'll suggest getting one that doesn't affect the low end, only the mids and highs get the effect. Even better if it has pre-delay settings that you can muck about with. Depending on how you're intending to use your reverb, you could set the pre-delay longer for making it sound like a bigger hall/space.

Another cool trick is to put reverb only on the delay trails (still keeping that short chorus/flanger delay setting), not on the dry signal.
That ought to fatten things up for you while retaining clarity and pitch definition. :thumbsup:

This is a really great, super informative, post. Thank you.
 
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I am excellent when it comes to not knowing what I am talking about.

I get what you are saying, it makes sense. I was referring to rate as speed, probably another instance of not properly expressing myself. So if I apply what you said to my thought process I understand this as: without at least a slow speed (frequency of lfo) no sound would be produced from the depth (amplitude) setting. So at least a little rate is needed to achieve that chorus depth I am looking for.

Or did I completely miss the boat?
You are on the boat and sailing for success.

Also, rate and speed are usually just different names for the same thing.
 
Yer welcome Dominick!

I thought you might be interested in the UA bit...
"a short delay of less than 30 milliseconds can be used to thicken a sound that seems a bit thin".


Yah see peoples? I don't always post just rubbish... :ninja:


I also liked Callofcthulhu's explanation of chorus depth & rate, I'm always eager to learn something new and the home stereo analogy brought it home for me.
 
A detune effect will essentially act as a chorus with a "fixed" depth and variable frequency, with the unique characteristic that the depth is audibly the same for every note on the fretboard:

A traditional chorus effect will have some maximum depth, e.g. 10 - 10000 Hz or something. Because your low notes don't have a lot happening above a few hundred Hz (the fundamental and a few overtones) they don't sound as effected, whereas a high note might have audible overtones well into the high thousands of Hz, most of which will be in the effect range, so they sound more effected.

Because the detune effect detunes based on the input signal, your low E and all of its overtones will be just as detuned as your high C and all of its overtones. The detune amount sets the "beat," i.e. the frequency with which the original and effected signals are canceling each other out. (The "beat" frequency is what you use when you're tuning by ear to tell if two notes are the same.)
 
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