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DI: Pre or Post

#101
oyobass said:
I sometimes get there early and do just that, except I use a wireless so that I can use my amp to drive the board input. I could compare pre and post in a true A/B fashion if I could find someone around to press the switch on my preamp. I think I'll give it a try!

oyo
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Yeah, wireless is great for checking out the FOH mix - when possible, I try to get out front and see if I can help(tactfully) the soundguy dial in my sound out front...

I sometimes run sound for my band while playing, and it helps out immensely for that, too...



- georgestrings
 
#102
Pellotsalo said:
Which one is more common at gigs, to use separate DI-box or the orginal sound of tube amp? I am just wondering what's the point to buy 2000e amp, if you are using it only as a monitor for yourself..?
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Depends on what you're trying to accomplish, and how deep your pockets are for the most part...

My strategy is to insure that I can hear myself over the drums and guitar, yet sound good onstage - but to also send a good sounding signal that's constant to the board, and let the PA carry the room... I still *usually* have enough rig with me to carry *most* rooms, but only use enough of it to match volumes with the drums and guitar...



- georgestrings
 
#103
Pellotsalo said:
Which one is more common at gigs, to use separate DI-box or the orginal sound of tube amp? I am just wondering what's the point to buy 2000e amp, if you are using it only as a monitor for yourself..?
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I agree, and that's why I carry a mic and plug it into the line they give me for a DI now. However, some people are content with thier amp only being a monitor (I was for a few years my own self) so a DI works for them. Different strokes.
 
#105
Pellotsalo said:
I am just wondering what's the point to buy 2000e amp, if you are using it only as a monitor for yourself..?
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Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner. I play all my gigs with a 175 watt, 10" combo amp. Never has a sound guy said I need more stage volume. Never has anyone said the DI from the amp sucked. Never have I not heard myself.

Of course all our gigging situations are different...
 
#106
JimmyM said:
And my reply would be to say that if a soundman can't deal with a sound coming from someone's amp and make it work in a mix, either:

1. The soundman is incompetent
2. The bassist is incompetent
C. All of the above
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What I meant was ;

It won't change a thing if you go in front in the sound check or in the show to get "your" sound because the soundman will have to make a mix later and he'll EQ your sound to get it.
So "your" sound that you told him to do won't be your sound anymore.....
So just give him a good clean sound and let him do his job.
 
#107
Most of the places my band plays are small enough that my amp could do it with out the help of the PA. When I go through the PA I no longer have my amp on overkill, and the stage volume is much, much softer. The guitar guys don't like it because they have to turn down, but the singer sure does appreciate it.
 
#108
For me persanally, I think I get a great sound from my bass and my hands (I don't mean that in an arogent way), just stating that my amp does not create my sound just reproduces it.

My head and cabinet help to reproduce the sound I want to hear on stage in allot of cases it is a stage monitor and in other cases it provides FOH also depends on the gig.

I feel that my main head (Glock Heartrock) has a great DI that helps me get that sound of my hands and bass to the FOH.

After that it is in the hands of the engineer. Just like players an engineers skill many times is more important then the system they use, although a good system is always a nice bonus. I have never and will never go out front and give input on how he should do his job, but that's just me.

One group I play with we have our own PA which we use for corporate events and such, which I run and it's very nice. I leave my channel completely flat. If someone comments that it's to bassy or thin I will make slight adjustments accordingly but I think I have a pretty good handle on getting the right tone out of that equipment.
 
#110
fokof said:
What I meant was ;

It won't change a thing if you go in front in the sound check or in the show to get "your" sound because the soundman will have to make a mix later and he'll EQ your sound to get it.
So "your" sound that you told him to do won't be your sound anymore.....
So just give him a good clean sound and let him do his job.
Click to expand...
Exactly right.:)
 
#111
fokof said:
What I meant was ;

It won't change a thing if you go in front in the sound check or in the show to get "your" sound because the soundman will have to make a mix later and he'll EQ your sound to get it.
So "your" sound that you told him to do won't be your sound anymore.....
So just give him a good clean sound and let him do his job.
Click to expand...

I really agree with this. It is the the most often real world scenario that I have found.

JKT
 
#112
Did a show the other night, the bass player (pretty good player) was trying to get some real bottom out of his 410 rig (brand not important) w/ a 5 string while slapping and he had an awful lot of low end and low mid boost on his amp. He insisted on sending me a post eq DI and it was unuseable to me without cutting or at least trying to cut out what he added. He finally agreed to "try" the pre eq position (though he really didn't understand why post was a problem, or what it even was but his friend told him that post was the only way to go) and I was quickly able to get what I needed to get what he was trying (unsuccessfully) to achieve from the stage. Once he walked out and listened, it was no problem. 8 x 18's and 8kW has an entirely different response than 410's in a sealed cabinet. I could not uncorrect his goofy eq and frankly in the context of the show I had more important things to attend to when considering the big picture.

I can almost always get a good, solid bass sound with little effort pre eq, but there's a lot more guessing when I have to deal with post eq. There's only so much time allocated for sound check, and if I have to move on to another input, the tone will end up being a compromise. That's unfortunately how the real world works.

If you don't use a lot of eq, then it's not a big deal. If you tend to use a lot of eq, look at it from the sound guy's perspective.

(specific details left out for obvious reasons)

Just offering the sound guy's perspective.
 
#114
The thing with amps/PA is that yeah, many of us could carry the room with a bass rig, but going through the PA is more than just volume. It has to do with mix, uniformity of sound, balance, etc.
 
#116
agedhorse said:
Did a show the other night, the bass player (pretty good player) was trying to get some real bottom out of his 410 rig (brand not important) w/ a 5 string while slapping and he had an awful lot of low end and low mid boost on his amp. He insisted on sending me a post eq DI and it was unuseable to me without cutting or at least trying to cut out what he added. He finally agreed to "try" the pre eq position (though he really didn't understand why post was a problem, or what it even was but his friend told him that post was the only way to go) and I was quickly able to get what I needed to get what he was trying (unsuccessfully) to achieve from the stage. Once he walked out and listened, it was no problem. 8 x 18's and 8kW has an entirely different response than 410's in a sealed cabinet. I could not uncorrect his goofy eq and frankly in the context of the show I had more important things to attend to when considering the big picture.

I can almost always get a good, solid bass sound with little effort pre eq, but there's a lot more guessing when I have to deal with post eq. There's only so much time allocated for sound check, and if I have to move on to another input, the tone will end up being a compromise. That's unfortunately how the real world works.

If you don't use a lot of eq, then it's not a big deal. If you tend to use a lot of eq, look at it from the sound guy's perspective.

(specific details left out for obvious reasons)

Just offering the sound guy's perspective.
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As I said before, there's a big difference between someone running post-EQ with a little tweak and someone running post-EQ with a gigantic low mid and lows hump. This all falls under my Theory of Incompetence, where if there's a problem with post-EQ, it's usually a result of soundman incompetence, bassist incompetence, or both. In this case it was bassist incompetence.
 
#117
JimmyM said:
As I said before, there's a big difference between someone running post-EQ with a little tweak and someone running post-EQ with a gigantic low mid and lows hump. This all falls under my Theory of Incompetence, where if there's a problem with post-EQ, it's usually a result of soundman incompetence, bassist incompetence, or both. In this case it was bassist incompetence.
Click to expand...

When hitting the stage with a lot of variables, especially where there are several bands involved or (even more challanging) a festival situation, I really like to remove as many variables from the equation. This allows me to concentrate on the big picture, how the band comes across as a unified mix, everything fitting with everything else. I don't have control of what the player may do once he starts the set and goes to twisting knobs, hence my more conservative approach. Who knows how he may react when he hears low end roll-around from some real subs... hard to tell what FOH sounds like from the stage in this situation.

I agree, there are bad bassists and bad sound guys... I am talking about eliminating one variable from the equation for the benefit of the entire band, where the sound guy knows what he is doing. I agree this is not always the case, but at the level I work at it's mostly true. Generally, the bass players are pretty understanding about their gear as well, but when I get an inexperienced opening act, I like to stack the odds in my favor as there are plenty of other things waiting to kick my a$$. I just don't know what they are yet. ;)

When I deal with bass players in the know, post eq is not an issue as they tend to have good sense about how the big picture works, and good control over their stage sound without excessive eq... and not at my expense.
 
#119
This is so simple.

If:-
a) The amp provides a tone that is integral to your sound
b) You use many or varied fx to get your sound
c) You color your sound with anything AT ALL to make it right for you for a song

Then the FOH needs that to properly reproduce that sound in FOH.

If that sound:-
a) requires the cabs' interaction
b) requires any other part of the signal chain after the DI in the head
Then the FOH needs a mic to properly reproduce that sound in FOH

Else IF:-
a) You rely solely on your hands/bass/strings/ebow to get your sound
b) No part of the signal chain from your bass to your ears on stage in your opinion MAKES your sound what it needs to be

Then the FOH will be able to get your sound solely with a DI after the bass

Does anyone here really believe that say, Doug Wimbish or Bootsy or Tony Levin actually run pre eq DI from the bass?

Cos they are using so many fx in there chain as part of their signature sound that that eq is almost nothing compared to the other stuff.

I've done extensive FOH, monitor mixes and been the bass player, and been an engineer in the studio. And it boils down like this, FOH cant recreate any of that good stuff at all, its got mic pres, parametric eq, compression and additive fx (reverbs & chorus etc) but none of that will typically help build the sound of an SVT, or a mutron or whatever.

So if you need that colouration on the sound of your playing to make it right for you/yourband/that song/thatchours/that lick, then FOH need it in the signal they get.

And dont give me all the "FOH cant deal with it, the spillage is to much into the bass mic" nonsense. They can deal if they have any real knowledge, if the spill really is so awful build an iso box with a miced cab in it, but typically it isnt since the people who depend on that tonal coloring are rarely playing coffe shop smooth jazz through a vocal PA (in which case it wouldn't matter anyway due to venue size).

I'm absolutely with JimmyM on this one, believe you me it is very very rare to get a really bad DI out these days unlees somthing is broken or plugged in wrong, eq'ed or not, and if the player uses extensive fx or eq changes or amp colouration then it is usually IMO & IME easier to mic the cab to get it. The FOH guy is going to compress the cr@p out of you anyway to control peaks, he'll most likely limit everything to save heis big bins anyway, he will eq you to frequency mix you in with the rest of the band etc etc, he will not ride eqs (on the bass) through the gig, so if you are going to change stuff alot let him know first, he is not going to add and remove fx to make it funkier - that is your job, he is not going to provide cab or amp colouration if you need it let him know, he will reach for a mic.

He is going to take the sound you need and get it out front as best he can. He is going to make the band sound great if possible, he is definitely going to make the Kick drum sound like a bomb going off and feel like a punch in the chest, he is definitely going to make the vocals very very loud, and the guitar too probably unlees he knows your band's sound is very different from that. Give him what you want the audience to hear and within the bounds of the mix he will give that to the audience.

Lastly neither method is right all the time, it is in fact down to the bassist/band in fact and not the sound guy at all. He should have a huge array of tools to tame whatever you give him to make it right for the venue, notch filters, dynamic processors, eq etc, and if he needs to he will use them. The one thing that will really get up his nose is too much bass on stage, annd a disrespectful band. Other than that he will attempt to accomodate you as best he can.

Sorry this is such a long rant but professional sound guys deserve more credit than they seem to get here for understanding signal chain requirements for a truly excellent bass sound IMO & IME, and if they dont they shouldnt be working in the business and dont use them again!
 
#120
Another thought occured to me.

The post who said that his FOH guy said the LMII direct level changed as a result of the master vol being tampered with.

Was that the OP?

Anyway, had you fiddled with any controls on your bass that evening? Even sweeping a passive tone may have made a difference on the meters to the output, since it is attenuating the top end. If you play with pickup balance and an active pre in the bass then you could easily add up to 6dB to 12dB to the signal out of your bass (maybe even more with some of the 18v pres out there).

That would certainly account for what the FOH guy saw...
 

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