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Dialing in mix and volume and with no sound tech?

Bullitt5135

Bullitt5135

Nov 16, 2010
2,058
4,162
SE Michigan
#1
My classic rock band is starting to land some bar gigs. The pay isn't enough to justify hiring a sound tech at this point, so we're running our own sound for now. We played a gig at a sports bar last weekend and struggled with being too loud -- it was the classic "I can barely hear my bass, but apparently we're peeling paint off the walls." The other guys in the band have been in the business for 30 years and think they know what they're doing (they seem to have their levels memorized and start from there... "I'm always set at '5', dude -- no way that's too loud"). The manager politely asked us to turn down a couple times (though otherwise he gave us positive feedback at the end of the night). I think the volume culprit is the lead guitarist, but without a pair of ears out in the room it's hard to say.

I don't want this to be a "my guitar player is an idiot" thread, but rather I'm looking for some tips to get everyone in my band to realize how they sound across the room. My question is how do you guys dial in the sound when you have to set up and start the show on-the-fly with no soundcheck and no sound tech? At these small venues (2000 sq. ft. or less), we're only mic'ing the vocals, using two mains and three floor wedges. We're pretty much standing shoulder to shoulder in the corner of the room, so we're right on top of our amps.
 
#6
Ironically, the guitar player is the only one of us who is wireless. Early on, he did walk out in the room for a minute or so -- I guess he was happy with everything. When we were asked to turn down the second time, the singer said something to me like "I guess they were expecting an acoustic band." I know I'm dealing with the "can't teach old dogs new tricks" syndrome, but something's got to give or were going to have a hard time getting return bookings.
 
#7
I bought a wireless system to use with my bass for this reason. We do our own sound sometimes and sometimes not. Either way I am al over the room we are in to ensure everything sounds good. There have still been times we were asked to turn down but that's not because we were to loud it's because the bar owners thought we were.
 
#8
I can't really give you any advice except this:

Understand the concept of frequency beaming.

Understand that it will sound completely different when you are standing behind the mains than what you want it to sound.

Understand that the vast majority of time when a civilian comes up to you and says it's too loud, it's not. What he really means is that some errant frequency is drilling him in the head and it's annoying him. The first place to look for that frequency is 1.2K.

Understand that despite all that knowledge and understanding, the guitar player will still want what he wants and doesn't give a #$%^. No matter what he says.
 
#9
+1 to the wireless and doing a sound check.
My band is a 5-piece classic rock band, and I run the sound from stage. I set everyone's gain levels and EQ them to the room individually, then we play a 3rd set song to set a good mix. I go out and check again every 3-4 songs as the night goes on and make adjustments as necessary.
It also helps to have some trusted friends (even better if they happen to also be musicians) in the audience to bring things to your attention that you may have missed.
 
#11
Not everybody in a band necessarily hears, or even wants to hear the same things. Many people have "tunnel hearing", where they only (want to) hear themselves rather than the whole package. The obvious solution, when you can't hear one instrument, is to turn that instrument up. A better solution is usually to turn others down, and/or adjust EQs to create some sonic separation between instruments. Too much volume for a given environment sounds like crap.

It can take a lot of discipline to go against the obvious. Not everybody has that discipline & it's almost always better to have somebody out front who understands how to create a mix than to rely on any of the onstage players.
 
#12
Thanks for the helpful comments & suggestions. At the next rehearsal, I'll bring up the subject so we can come to an agreement on how to handle this at future gigs. I'm going to emphasize that we need to be aware when we have to turn way down for the dinner crowd (1st set). We can always turn it up when the dancing starts if we need to. I'm also going to suggest enlisting the drummer's wife (who is at most all of the gigs) to be our ears out in the room. I'd like to have her check with the bar staff to make sure the volume is comfortable for everyone.

I'm also going to suggest rearranging our setup so that our individual cabinets are across the stage from where we are standing. We're obviously not hearing ourselves if the cabs are firing at the backs of our knees.

Lastly, I'm going to see if I can get the guys to cut our practice volume by 25%. We like to play fairly loud when we practice, but something's got to give. Only good things can come out of us hearing ourselves more clearly when we rehearse.
 
#14
I deal with volume problems with my guitarist and B3 player. Both are in their 50s and both have significant hearing loss.

On regular bar gigs both are only just in the mains. The guitarist has a perspex folding screen he puts in front of his amp so he can run it at the levels he insists on. The keyboard player has his combo aimed at his head directly and away from the audience. This after more 'hissy fits' from me than you can imagine.

We now get complimented on our stage sound and volume level but it took a lot of pleading and threats to get there.

We used to rehearse so loud that I would leave rehearsal with my ears ringing. I got to the point where I had to say 'if you want to rehearse at these levels you need to find a bass player that is as deaf as you' before they agreed to cut back.

Good luck!
 
#15
JohnMCA72 said:
Not everybody in a band necessarily hears, or even wants to hear the same things. Many people have "tunnel hearing", where they only (want to) hear themselves rather than the whole package. The obvious solution, when you can't hear one instrument, is to turn that instrument up. A better solution is usually to turn others down, and/or adjust EQs to create some sonic separation between instruments. Too much volume for a given environment sounds like crap.

It can take a lot of discipline to go against the obvious. Not everybody has that discipline & it's almost always better to have somebody out front who understands how to create a mix than to rely on any of the onstage players.
Click to expand...

I may be the biggest barnicle on the board.

If I'm buying, storing, transporting and upgrading the gear, they have the privilige of paying a small budget for the service....

for this small budget, they receive one mix exactly like the mains.

IF they want an improvement, they're more than welcome to buy, setup, manage and maintain a board that will accommodate mutliple auxes and an IEM system.

"Wants to hear" commonly vanishes when the gear is not available to do customized mixes (cabling, board, monitors etc)

I've been in multiple acts.. The ones that have a single mix the same as the monitor have the overall best FOH sound. ... the trick is minimal stage volume and practicing/acclimating to "how to hear"

popping out in the middle of multiple songs really bridges on a douchbaggery party killer ... wireless is cool when there's a purpose... many times its used to invade folks personal space and/or draw unneeded atttention to non-entertainment sideshows.

Yes - I own a wireless and check volume (before patrons/guests arrive) ---
 
#16
Yeah we have ears in the crowd that feedback on our over-all mix we do a sound check one song and he runs up on us with thumbs up or what he thinks needs to be adjusted we have no ego's in our band and everyone listens to him because we have come to trust him and his judgement. We know each room is different and at times depending on weather condition amount of bodies in the crowd, rooms you play all the time do not always work with the same settings as the last time you played there. Therefore a sound check every show and what needs to be tweaked gets done. And let me add it is a never set it and forget it. As the room changes (more people, less people?) the adjustments need to be made to have the best mix at that time. We mix ourselves 90% of the shows we perform.
 
#17
In most of my gigging situations, I've run the board from the stage.
A few things I've learned over the years:

Do everything you can to have the same mix in the monitors as in the mains. Saves needing to walk out into the audience to hear the mix.
It's still a good idea to walk out once 1/2 way through each set to check overall volume. Sometimes the "trusted ears" of friends/family aren't that trustworthy.
Insist that the guitar players have their amps tilted/raised so the beaming frequencies are aimed at their heads.
I've found that a good way to get guitar players, etc. to lower their stage volume is to turn down the monitors. If, instead of playing quieter, they complain that they can't hear the vocals, I fib and tell them that's as loud as I can get it without feedback.
Sometimes when the audience/bar owner complains about the volume, but I don't think it is, I've found that pulling back on any time based effects (reverb, delay, etc.) helps. The human brain will often misinterpret reverb/echo as "too loud".
 
#18
jarrydee said:
get a wireless, then you or the guitar player can walk out and hear what the real problem is!
Click to expand...

+1
I use to use a wireless strictly for this purpose. I could throw the wireless on and walk around in every part of the venue that was of concern to see what needed to be done. After that I usually just went back to a cable, cause I'm typically sort of stuck within a small area during a performance anyway..
You can gets wireless for pretty cheap these days. Very helpful when you need an extra set of ears out front.
 
#19
Isn't there an ideal sequence that you would run a soundcheck when you have the time needed? I suspect starting with the drums (especially if they are miked) would be prudent and then add in an instrument at a time. Would you add them by frequency ranges of the various instruments, like guitars, keyboard, bass, color instruments and vocals?
 
#20
Once again we are vocals only in the mains with four floor monitors.

We use a three pronged attack.

1. Since the drums aren't miked, we play as loud as the drums, (and the drums aren't all that loud as our drummer prefers thin sticks). We also do this at rehearsal. Then everybody just plays the same volume as rehearsal.

2. I stand in front of the drums and between the two guitarist. Both guitarist have their amps on crates so they're the same elevation. I can then hear if they're balanced and their leads and rhythm are at good levels. I can also get some idea how close their level is with the drums.

3. Train your girlfriend. I take my girlfriend out to see a lot of other bands and we discuss the band's mix. She has pretty sensitive hearing and for the most part hears things the same way that I do. So I'm very confident in the feedback she gives me during the gig. In our band all four of us sing so we need to get everybody at the same level. We each sing a song to start the night and she points up or down if we have to adjust that singers vocal level across those first four songs.

The little places we play don't afford the opportunity of a sound check, (like they just moved tables to make a "stage") so you have to be ready to go. I don't think we've ever been told that we're too loud. Of course it probably helps that we're a bunch of guys over 50 and are long past the loud music thing.
 

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