Dissecting the Gospel Groove

[Torch7]

It comes with time, experience and exposure. If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, you mean how long does it take to be able to guess and anticipate what the next note will be when you hear a song and you're trying to play along... whether in practice or on the spot.

My laymen's answer to that would be.... (get this one) you're thinking too hard... if you want to know what NOTE comes next, you need to concentrate more on theory. But over time, with more experience and a little exposure, you'll easily get over this hump.

Here's what I mean.... C MAJ chord or triad.... do you know what notes they are? How about a Bflat minor 7th... if there is such a thing... I don't know the notes (well I do, but let's pretend that I don't), BUT I know that if I know where C (the 1) is, finding E (the 3) and G (the 5) is a matter of what I'll call a "spatial relationship" on the neck amongst the frets. That's why I can play Precious Lord in ANY key by only knowing the root, because the movements from the 1 to the 4 in the beginning are the same no matter the key and we all know where the 4 is in relation to the 1, right?

Now, knowing that the first movement is actually from the 1 to the 4 is a matter of remembering that in a lot of gospel, especially traditional gospel, 80% of the songs follow the blues progression (1-4-5) to some degree....

But THAT tidbit comes from... time (time spent learning your instrument and this genre of music) experience (playing SOOOOOO many songs and finding out how common the 1-4-5 thing is and the many variations that don't really vary all that much) and exposure (exposure to the various ways that this composition technique is employed in gospel music)

In that video I linked to earlier, with Mr. Demetrius Tolefree and Mr. Booya Richardson.... those cats didn't get that good last week... they've been playing for YEARS!!!! Another good friend of mine listed in my influences, Anthony, that brother will leave a bass rig panting & gasping for air by the time he's finished wanking and slappin' and poppin and chordin'....and he works on it everyday!!! The level of professionalism and mastery that a lot of us are seeking only comes with time and effort. I wished that I was presented with the choice of the red pill or the blue pill.... but NO PILL will do for us the magic we seek unless we make that sacrifice of time and humility....

Hope that helps.

I guess the newbie manner in which I ask questions, comes across a certain way.. My question was more of an personal experience question... so that I can guage my progres.. like i said, I have been playing for about a year.

I know enough theory to be really dangerous... I know for the most part my intervals on the neck... and that if I play it in one position, I can move it around the neck to play it in another place.

Your right, however about me thinking too hard... That's just my nature, I am very analytical. Its a tremendous blessing, but at times, it can hinder.

I guess my question was to guage milestones... like I said, since I don't have any bassist in my circle of influence.. I don't know if I am doing well for the amount of time I have been playing or if I need to step it up.(Ofcourse I can always step it up.. .but you get the idea.)

 

[mike sancho]

I haven't had the luxury of experienced sound folks that know what their doing, these are mostly volunteers in the Audio Visual ministry and by the time I get their, they've got their ways of doing things... It's not their fault, and I don't see them as ignorant or anything, I just deal with it and play on...

Can I get an AMEN???!!!!!!

I use round wound medium gauge always.
don't be afraid to use the root 5th thing and learn how to pedal while long periods of shouting are happening.

 

[Robear22]

Can anyone give an estimate on how long it took their ear to develop to be able to identify intervals in songs, without slowing tracks down etc.

I am really dedicated to being a student of Music, but my time right now is at premium, so I am trying to get the most out of the time I have to train my ear, and learn theory.

Like Mario stated all of that comes with time. It took me several years of playing to get the point of being able to know what to play next. Practicing and knowing your scales and modes are real helpful.

At one point I was a pattern player. I relied on what pattern I played with my fingers and I could not tell you what notes I was playing. I did not progress until I took it upon myself to get a general understanding of theory. It really helps and also when your keyboardist is shouting out notes you will know where to go.

Mario, I really like the way you explain things in this thread. You are taking what I am thinking and expressing it so easily. Sometimes it really is hard to express what you know through a keyboard.

Keep up the good work my fellow bass brothers. Ain't no groove like a gospel groove.

 

[rick1906]

Excellent thread! This is one of the best I've read it quite a while. I've been playing for four years now and still have a lot to learn. Mario, you explain things very well and I've been reading your posts for a couple of years now. This is really educational.

 

[Torch7]

While I can't speak to locking in with the preacher, to me the ultimate experience comes, during Praise and Worship, and a
Worship song is being played over a slow progression, Roots will do just fine, and everyonce in a while you use couple of passing notes.

You don't want to do anything to disturb the Spirit... everyone is into it, not many dry eyes in the place, and then all of a sudden, spontaneous WORSHIP errupts, the Worship leader is trying everything possible to hold it together, but they can't, and the musicians are left to play....

 

[IotaNet]

Fellas -

I've asked some of you this via private message but now I'll throw it out there for everyone to see.

I am continuing my journey toward being an "Urban Gospel Bassist" and life is good. I am making sure my gear is in order to give myself the best (and most appropriate) sound.

Some recent feedback has indicated to me that the basses of choice are the:

Peavey Cirrus
Ken Smith
Lakland
Carvin

Unfortunately, I don't have the $$$ to buy any of these right now.

I do have a few basses already - see my sig. I am however, in a position to get a free bass in the next couple of weeks and I am curious about which option to choose.

I can either get:

1) A 5-string passive Mexican Jazz Bass, or;
2) An active 5-string Stingray copy (OLP Tony Levin Sig)

Based on what ya'll know about "what works best" in the Black Church musical environment, I would welcome your feedback!

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mario Lewis]

I would go with the active bass. The signal is going to be a little hotter and in our environment... live and in living color on any given Sunday, you need all you can to compete (at least I do). I've never had much luck with passive basses or even my active basses in passive mode. On my previous Smith, and on my current one, when I pull the passive knob, I have to turn the bass all the way up to really get a sound worth something you'd want to listen to. In addition, I've never really been a fan of Fenders. When you want to dig in and get a little funky, Fenders just never sound like they got somethin' to say. Ya know?

As for the basses you listed, You can't go wrong with the Smith and the Lakland. They'll cost ya. If you can get the PV, you can't go wrong. I had one and it definitely held it's own. THey're affordable too. Especially on the used market. Get a good set up and you will be quite pleased. I've got no carvin experience, so not much to say there.

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

I would go with the active bass. The signal is going to be a little hotter and in our environment... live and in living color on any given Sunday, you need all you can to compete (at least I do).

+1....personally, I can't think of any reason for me to own anything but an active bass.

For the other selections, Smith's and MTD's are certainly the standard bearers, but I'm starting to see more Cirrus' (Peavey), Warrior's (these are custom made Christian luthiers...basses are actually annointed with oil and prayed over before shipping!), and Conklin's.

 

[IotaNet]

I don't have the $$$ to buy any of these right now and I have a few basses already - see my sig. I am however, in a position to get a free bass in the next couple of weeks and I am curious about which option to choose.

I can either get:

1) A 5-string passive Mexican Jazz Bass, or;
2) An active 5-string Stingray copy (OLP Tony Levin Sig)

Great feedback but remember, these are the (only) two options I have right now. Later, I might be able to come out of pocket with some money but for now, I have to take what I will be given.

I hear ya'll loud and clear on the active choice but I don't hear of many Church bassists playing Stingrays. That's the reason I asked.

 

[Mario Lewis]

As I recall, Stingrays might be a little tight on the spacing.... pretty good for finger style, but might present a challenge when it's time to get a little funky. Hopefully you'll get a chance to TBYB - Try B4 U Buy. If you've got to get the fender, check the cavity to see if you'll be able wo swap out the guts at a later point... J-Retro's cost about $200-$350 and can bring a lazy old Leo to life!!

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

I hear ya'll loud and clear on the active choice but I don't hear of many Church bassists playing Stingrays. That's the reason I asked.

True, but not too many play a Yamaha (I do) or Tune bass (RoBear 22 does) in church either. In my situation, no one in Des Moines played a 5 string in church. I bought my Yamaha 5, fellowshiped with numerous churches and participated in various Community and Mass choirs, and within 5-6 months very few were playing their 4 strings anymore. Concidence, maybe....but probably not.

Blaze your own trail, my friend...and Mario has a good point about the spacing...very importantt if you're gonna slap!!

 

[groov'ster]

I've got a question that you can all give me your opinion on.

Where do most of you set your treb for your mix? I ask because I am beginning to wonder if my ears are deceiveing me. Mine is set treb 2 oclock, mids 12noon, bass 2 oclock.
I feel like if I run the treb any higher it is to brittle or harsh. BUT is that what how most urban bassists run thier setup for a live performance?
I hear the highs come through real good on albums and such and I wonder if I too need to run more highs to get that clarity? Is it something that I have to get my ears accustomed to?

Theres no lack in the booty end of the spectrum, plenty of low end.


My setup is really simple at church.

Me>>bass>>sansamp bass DI>>FOH. I only use a wedge monitor for my cab. I like it, not as much as a full head and cab stack, but I like it. It was a happy medium between me and the sound men.

I don't know if I have made any sense but if I have give me some insight.

 

[Torch7]

I've got a question that you can all give me your opinion on.

Where do most of you set your treb for your mix? I ask because I am beginning to wonder if my ears are deceiveing me. Mine is set treb 2 oclock, mids 12noon, bass 2 oclock.
I feel like if I run the treb any higher it is to brittle or harsh. BUT is that what how most urban bassists run thier setup for a live performance?
I hear the highs come through real good on albums and such and I wonder if I too need to run more highs to get that clarity? Is it something that I have to get my ears accustomed to?

Theres no lack in the booty end of the spectrum, plenty of low end.


My setup is really simple at church.

Me>>bass>>sansamp bass DI>>FOH. I only use a wedge monitor for my cab. I like it, not as much as a full head and cab stack, but I like it. It was a happy medium between me and the sound men.

I don't know if I have made any sense but if I have give me some insight.

Good question... I am interested in hearing the responses, I still haven't found a setting that works in every instance...we bridge lots of different styles, and i end up toying with the knobs constantly.

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

Ok....on my GrooveBass 1200, I have a graphic and parametric equalizer. The graphic is an upside down scoop and I have the para's set at: 10:00 for the bass, 1:00 for mids, and 11:00 for highs. This gives me a very punchy sound which works well for slap in my primary venue. I have the rig on the other side of the choir stand (about 10-15 yards) and I can still feel the bass rumble in my feet..... that's my starting point and I adjust from there.

 

[groov'ster]

Ok....on my GrooveBass 1200, I have a graphic and parametric equalizer. The graphic is an upside down scoop and I have the para's set at: 10:00 for the bass, 1:00 for mids, and 11:00 for highs. This gives me a very punchy sound which works well for slap in my primary venue. I have the rig on the other side of the choir stand (about 10-15 yards) and I can still feel the bass rumble in my feet..... that's my starting point and I adjust from there.

Based on what you said, do you think it has to do more with bumping up the mids and treb, and backing off the bass a lil?

 

[GSPLBASSDC]

Based on what you said, do you think it has to do more with bumping up the mids and treb, and backing off the bass a lil?

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Mids are your friends for cutting thru the mix and delivering that "punch in the chest". I usually don't do a whole lot with treble and I do like a little bass since I use 12's and 10's...if I had a 15", I probably wouldn't use as much bass and dial in more treble

 

[groov'ster]

Thanks, I will give it a try and experiment with it. I know sometimes a lil bit goes along way.

One of the reasons I asked the question was because on our (church) recorded services I don't cut through. I know it could be both my sound and how the sound men set me up in the mix (a whole nother issue) We played this sunday on some really good tunes where it called for some slap and the high end really needed to stand out and it just didn't.
One of the things I worry about is to much finger noise/clack coming from the highs. I want there to be just enough and I'm kinda scared that I might put to much in it and it will sound really bad.

Sometimes I'm just to cautious.

I would love to see how guys like Maurice Fitz, Hammond, T Palmer, and Gouche' setup thier rigs sound wise. I know they have thier own distinct sounds but I think they would be pretty close. Those are the guys that I hear the most and the tone absolutley kills!

 

[Mario Lewis]

I would love to see how guys like Maurice Fitz, Hammond, T Palmer, and Gouche' setup thier rigs sound wise. I know they have thier own distinct sounds but I think they would be pretty close. Those are the guys that I hear the most and the tone absolutley kills!

I will get around to the other question, but I wanted to chime in on this quote first.

For years, I felt the same way... I want THAT sound that I hear on recordings... but what you're hearing on the recordings is a mixing board and a mix of other things. Those cats have a direct line to the board that the sound crew compresses in mixdown to tape... there might be a mic'ed cab in there, but I'd offer that more times than not, you're not hearing their rig as much as you are their mix.... So try as we might, duplicating that recorded mixed down sound and trying to get the amount of mids, lows, & highs is a moot exercise. Recordings are deceiving... and in an attempt to get "that sound" I once had an Avalon 737... it's a recording all in one box... and the sound was pale in comparison to say an Eden 800 or an Alembic F1X ( I did the A/B... wasn't even close!). It sounded like it belonged on a record or CD... sterile, no booty, no thump... So keep that in mind the next time you're listening to your favorite track... you're listening to what the sound engineer and producer meant for you to hear, not what Gouche or Fitz might like to sound like or what they sounded like had you been standing in front of their cabinet at the recording session.

 

[Mario Lewis]

Where do most of you set your treb for your mix? ......

is that what how most urban bassists run thier setup for a live performance?...


I hear the highs come through real good on albums and such and I wonder if I too need to run more highs to get that clarity? Is it something that I have to get my ears accustomed to?

I commented on this in the post above... The highs you're hearing are direct to tape and reproducing that level of articulation live will be a bit of a challenge....

It is true that Mids are what get you heard. However, I have a mostly mid sounding instrument... as such, I'm running everything pretty much flat. On ocassion I may slightly boost treble and lows and slightly cut mids, but not too much. When I really want to be heard, I bump up the output on the power amp first and adjust the gain on the pre, THEN start adding mids...keeping that living room/bedroom practice sound (mid scoop) as much as possible.

I say employ the KISS principle. Start with everything flat (in the middle at 12:0 and see where you need to go. But set everything flat on your AMP first and then fiddle with the controls on your bass. Try to have it so that all you have to do is fiddle with your instrument... not your Amp. Keep the amp settings constant as much as possible. This will help eliminate the really wide variables for your sound. If you can't get the highs you want with just your instrument controls, set everything flat on your instrument, then bump up the treble on your amp, THEN go back to your ax and adjust some more, but when you go to your amp, dial in more than you need and throttle it back with your instrument tone controls. That way, your real control is local instead of having to always reach up to your amp... this process just eliminates how many things you are distracted by while trying to play quads and triplets.....

 

[groov'ster]

Thanks guys.

Yea I keep that in mind about the "finished / mixed" sound when I hear them play. They sound ooohhhh so goood though!

I am going to have to experiment with the settings at church when I play. I might bump my mids up and cut the lows a lil and give it a try. I tried it here at home for the past hour and it sounded good but different than what I have grwon accustomed to. Change is good sometimes, this might be one of those times.