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Dissecting the Gospel Groove

groov'ster said:
I only wish that my P&W team had the same desire.

Maybe next time your church has a fellowship w/ other churches, you can invite your new friends to help w/ the P & W, and your team can get a little "flava" and see what you're so excited about......

We do this often, and even though I'm a pretty decent bassist, there's always something new to learn from other musicians (mostly keyboardists and drummers, in my case)
 
GSPLBASSDC said:
Maybe next time your church has a fellowship w/ other churches, you can invite your new friends to help w/ the P & W, and your team can get a little "flava" and see what you're so excited about......

We do this often, and even though I'm a pretty decent bassist, there's always something new to learn from other musicians (mostly keyboardists and drummers, in my case)

We have talked about getting together. Maybe someday it will happen.
Someone here mentioned GOSPELCHOPS.com.

I went there and downloaded everything from the SHED. The keys have really helped me out b/c our ONE keybaord player does not have chops or moves like those guys.

I have to say that one bassist Tommy Brown had some licks too. I was going over some of his ideas last night.
 
groov'ster said:
We have talked about getting together. Maybe someday it will happen.
Someone here mentioned GOSPELCHOPS.com.

I went there and downloaded everything from the SHED. The keys have really helped me out b/c our ONE keybaord player does not have chops or moves like those guys.

I have to say that one bassist Tommy Brown had some licks too. I was going over some of his ideas last night.

Yes Tommy Brown is definately nice.
 
Torch7 said:
Soloing or Improvising in Gospel, is there a particular scale or pattern you find yourself using often.

I don't break outside of the box often, but every once in a while I will, and when I do, I am strongly drawn to the minor pentatonic scale.

I find myself drawn to the late 70's - early 80's funk riffs. They are fun and highly recognizable. I tend to start 'em our by playing stuff like "Mary had a Little Lamb" or other nursery rhymes....I don't know what it is about that kind of stuff, but it always gets a great response from the congregation.
 
GSPLBASSDC said:
I find myself drawn to the late 70's - early 80's funk riffs. They are fun and highly recognizable. I tend to start 'em our by playing stuff like "Mary had a Little Lamb" or other nursery rhymes....I don't know what it is about that kind of stuff, but it always gets a great response from the congregation.

Wow GSPLBASSDC... make me feel like a baby, In the early 80's I was 8. :)

While I am still progressing, the minister of music is wanting the musicians to push ourselves a bit. I am trying to add a little flavor to my playing, I always get a positive response from him, even if it doesn't quite work out the way it did in my head...:smug:
 
Torch7 said:
Wow GSPLBASSDC... make me feel like a baby, In the early 80's I was 8. :)

While I am still progressing, the minister of music is wanting the musicians to push ourselves a bit. I am trying to add a little flavor to my playing, I always get a positive response from him, even if it doesn't quite work out the way it did in my head...:smug:

ah, young one...you have learned much in your tender years :p

It's good to experiment with different things...keep it fresh 'n tasty!
Try some of the stuff I mentioned...you'll be surprised......
 
Torch7 said:
Does anyone know who is touring with the "HERO" tour on bass?

I took the kids to see the concert and it was nice. The Drummer who played during Mary Mary's portion of the SHOW was "WHOA!"

The drummer would be Tony Cambell, the husban of Tina Cambell of Mary Mary.
 
Torch7 said:
I am currently in the same boat... I am not running through the PA. Our stage configuration is all wrong, due to me leaning heavily on the keyboard players left hand to fiddle my way around, they are gonna move me soon :crying: b/c I need to lock with the drummer, I have been stalling them for a few months now... but the move is coming... So I gotta get myself together and stop playing copy cat with the keys...

I'm coming into this great thread late but looks like it's going to go for a while yet. Great subjects being discussed.

I'm coming from a predominantly Contemporary Praise & Worship, hymns, country gospel, southern gospel perspective (we definitely have variety). I can echo that I much prefer my Lakland 55-01 and Godin BG-V 5-stringers compared to my Fender MIA Precision and Jazz MIJ 4-strings. I'm thinking of trading my Godin up to a Cirrus.

Back AWAY from the keyboard player! You really do need to get yourself over by your drummer. You own the low end bro' and the one thing the keyboard player will usually do is just step on your notes and your groove. Even an extremely simple bass accompaniment can be very effective and get the groove on, if it is properly locked up with the drummer. Bass and drums are "the big car that band rides in".

A lot of the bass pedal notes that an organist plays will just muddy up the proceedings. I don't know of any keyboardists / pianists who have a bass player's mindset (probably a good thing).

Also, relating to a previous post on staying with roots and passing notes. That's sound advice that will always get you by but....Don't forget "fifths are your friends" and playing the 3rd in a chord will always bring a kind of "tension" that you can later "release" by going back to the root or fifth allowing the song to breathe.
 
Hawkeye said:
I'm coming into this great thread late but looks like it's going to go for a while yet. Great subjects being discussed.

I'm coming from a predominantly Contemporary Praise & Worship, hymns, country gospel, southern gospel perspective (we definitely have variety). I can echo that I much prefer my Lakland 55-01 and Godin BG-V 5-stringers compared to my Fender MIA Precision and Jazz MIJ 4-strings. I'm thinking of trading my Godin up to a Cirrus.

Back AWAY from the keyboard player! You really do need to get yourself over by your drummer. You own the low end bro' and the one thing the keyboard player will usually do is just step on your notes and your groove. Even an extremely simple bass accompaniment can be very effective and get the groove on, if it is properly locked up with the drummer. Bass and drums are "the big car that band rides in".

A lot of the bass pedal notes that an organist plays will just muddy up the proceedings. I don't know of any keyboardists / pianists who have a bass player's mindset (probably a good thing).

Also, relating to a previous post on staying with roots and passing notes. That's sound advice that will always get you by but....Don't forget "fifths are your friends" and playing the 3rd in a chord will always bring a kind of "tension" that you can later "release" by going back to the root or fifth allowing the song to breathe.

Thanks for the advice Hawkeye.

My ear is not strong yet, I have no clue what I should be playing at times, we don't get chord progressions, half the time I don't even know what key we be playing in.

I feel like I'm in a catch 22... the keyboard player can't lay off the bass line, because I really would be lost without his assistance, and he is truly trying to help, his heart is not to shine. I think I would benefit from attaching myself to a local bass player to help me out. I've got DVD's and Books, and practice anywhere from an hour & an hour and a half a day, but what I have in my head hasn't clicked to my playing yet.
 
I guess I"m thinking too much in my box. Our worship team tends to use at least a chord fake sheet (guitar / keyboard chords written over lyrics). That's all I need and I'm good to go.

There was a time last summer when a few of us played with a southern gospel pianist who was really good at that rhythmic bluesy, southern gospel, honky-tonk type of genre. He was quite free-form in his playing.

He didn't use music at all, but the guitarist and I requested that he give us something to at least put us "in the postal code". All we got was something like "Ab-Db-Eb-Ab" which we scribbled down. The whole set filled all of half a page. But you know what? It was enough. It was a fun instrumental gig and the congregation really got into it.

I'm sure your keyboardist could put together something like that. He's probably only got about a half dozen licks he uses most of the time anyway. Seems like it would take no time at all for him to write down some progressions that you could have handy and practice from, knowing that they were going to show up at some time in the service. Otherwise you're going to take a while to latch on to his favourite hooks, riffs and progressions.

Alternatively, if your church records your services, grab a couple of tapes and listen to them. I'm sure you'll find those favourite hooks and progressions in no time at all and you can practice them and be ready for the next time the keyboardist rolls them out. Or, if you don't record your services you could buy one of those cheap digital recorders and record your songs. I used to use one when I first started playing. I'd record songs in Thursday nite practice and play along to them before Sunday service. Even though it was low-fi I had everything I needed to get my lines together.

Maybe it's just me, but I think your situation is kinda backwards. Bass does not "follow" the keyboard, it drives the song and the melodic and harmonic instruments sit on top of the foundation that's created. They have to "keep up" with YOU and the drummer, not the other way around. You just need to know the general direction of the road then you can use the accelerator, brake and steering wheel to keep it between the shoulders. It's about unity.

All this is moot if you're playing in a completely unstructured, ad-lib, improvisational type of setting. I also would find that a bit challenging. It makes it kind of hard to get into the groove (nevermind create the groove) if your brain is working at 80mph just to stay in key and not make a mistake.

Key signature / Meter represent a minimum of info that you should reasonably expect to know beforehand in order to do the best job possible on the bass. "Follow me" from the keyboardist is just a little lazy and maybe even a little egotistical IMO. In the heyday of Motown a lot of the music was not written down and James Jamerson / Bob Babbit / Carol Kaye had to play without written music. HOWEVER... they did get the chance to hear the music before it was recorded so that they could compose an appropriate bassline before tape started rolling.

Personally, not that I want to create dissension among you and your bandmates, but I think it's a bit unfair of the keyboardist to play in this manner and just expect everyone else to get with it. Because you're new with the group, some may feel entitled to take the lead and expect others to follow. As your skill level increases and you have more confidence in your abilities you will be able to communicate that you expect a bit more from your bandmates to help serve the song overall. Again, this is not just to help you, but to remove some of the cranial "CPU load" so that you can concentrate more on the feel and groove of the song, and not have to use your head so much. Your expanding groove will become infectious and that benefits the whole band. Again, it's serving the song, not serving what happens to be in the head of the keyboardist at any given moment. This by definition, is almost impossible to decipher unless you've been playing together for a few years, because, as you know, you can only read minds in sci-fi movies.

Again, I'm probably referring to a situation that's more structured than yours so I apologize if I'm pontificating in a general way that doesn't fit your context. Our worship team tends to improvise relatively little (repeat a chorus, go acapella without instruments as the spirit leads, build to dynamic climax and then bring it right down again) and this tends to happen within the context of what's written on the page.

Even in a predominantly improvisational setting there is plenty of freedom for all instruments to express themselves if there is a very basic framework to build on. That basic framework doesn't quench the Spirit or the musical spirit, it just gives a simple foundation upon which everyone can musically express themselves yet still sound unified.

Maybe some of the things that have been mentioned are goals that you can aspire to at some time in the future. Maybe some you can plan to communicate sometime soon. Pray about it, and you'll know when the time is right.
 
Again thanks for the advise. I

Our setup is less optimal for people who are learning. Our Drummer's are both relatively new to the drums as well. Our Head of the Praise team, plays the keys, but she doesn't that often, she really works with the vocalist, and our head musician is responsible for the drums, congas and myself, and the only other musician is him.

In his defense, he is doing the best he can, the musicians show up at 6:00 for rehearsal, and we practice for an hour, then the vocalist come at 7:00 and we all practice together. He generally is expected to listen to the music a day or two before, and be able to have the entire band up to speed in a very short amount of time. HE is very humble and has the best interest of the worship service in mind. (I know this for a fact, because he is my best friend, and brother.) The biggest issue is communication, He just plays, and can't articulate what he is playing sometimes, he can say what key its in, but if I ask major or minor, he struggles with those concepts. If I ask if its a 736251 he give me a blank stare...Because of the time constraints, He calls out the notes like the gentleman you mentioned, and now I have this massive folder with Songs written atop of them, and notes all over the place. For me this is very confusing. He did agree to sit down with me and put the words on a page with the notes above the Words being song, he thinks this will help me know when to play which note.

I also know that he would love to move away from the bass notes, and just play his part. We have discussed the direction of the musicians and his heart is for me to be an awesome bassist, he just doesn't know how to assist me in getting there. There is about 2 songs that we do, that he lets me go on. Ofcourse the basslines are super easy... LOL!

But thanks again for the sound advise, I will definately attempt to record our practices... I had that thought before but abandoned it.
 
From the sounds of it your group has mastered the most important aspect of worship music, the servant attitude.

It sounds like you folks have your heads in the right space and your hearts in the right place. An attitude of service and working together to expect great things is number one. All other considerations (theory, chops, gear) are secondary in instrumental music ministry. As long as big hearts and not big heads prevail, you guys will do just great.

As I thought, your keyboardist may not be in a position to articulate the proper descriptions of chords and structures. No Biggie!

I think the recording of practices for your own personal use will help out a lot. I know it did for me. After about 6 months I stopped doing it because I didn't need it anymore.

Our saxophonist asked me to play with him in a wedding gig this summer and we're learning about 40 jazz standards. This has been a humbling experience because of the complexity of some of the songs. On some 9th and 11th chords not even the root sounds right! So, I'm thinking of going back to recording practices again so I can spend time with the songs and gain a better feel for them.

Band practice is not necessarily the place to learn your individual part in songs because much of the time is spent learning new material. I know our worship team is probably up over 100 songs in the repetoire and growing. Not as much lately, but sometimes we've played 10-12 songs in one service and in rehearsal that means that there's just enough time to rough them out.

You folks have the right attitude and more professional play will come with increased time together.
 
Hang in there, Torch7. It could be worse.

I played for several years with a male singer, female keyboardist and me. The singer, who was the most talented (but not a musician) liked to emphasize parts of songs by slowing down, speeding up or just stopping. The keyboardist, marginally talented, would follow the singer, as best she could. I, very marginally talented, had to interpolate every note I played, trying to stick the thing together. Trainwrecks ensued. We practised once in 4 years.

I decided I'd continue playing as long as it was better with me than not. Which was no sure thing, since sometimes it's easier to get by with a poor sense of time playing alone than to try to play with other musicians.
 
Thanks guys for the encouraging words, the are truly appreciated. Our Sr. Pastor has a pure heart, and places an emphasis on the worship service. Even though he is the Sr. Pastor, he always takes the position that Jesus is the greatest of servants, and if he strives to be like Jesus he must be a great servant. And he literally exemplifies the attitude that "You will not be a better servant than Me"

Just being around a man like that, eventually rubs of on you, it is really infectious.

I didn't mean to come across as I thought the situation was bleek, elwood. I love being a part of the Praise Team, despite not being musically were I think I should be. It is so refreshing when we let go and worship, Friday night rehearsals often are more powerful than sunday morning worship. The entire group are a blessing to be around. All of us musicians are Preachers, and Teachers first, and musicians second. We have a unique brotherhood, and ego's never get in the way.