Distance to your amp plus wireless latency = unacceptable delay?

[InhumanResource]

Latency over distance due to relatively low speed of sound I could have termed 'delay' but that would have opened another door for confusionists.

Again. Delay in signal reaching players ear due to seperation from the monitor cab added to latency from a digital wireless can be expresed as a combined number of feet.

Sheesh. Why so difficult?

Given the speed of sound is 340 meters per second at sea level, I think you would have to be seriously far away from your speaker for just the pure distance to make an impact. You're probably safe dealing with the latency native to whatever wireless device is in your system unless you're playing yards upon yards away from your monitor.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Given the speed of sound is 340 meters per second at sea level, I think you would have to be seriously far away from your speaker for just the pure distance to make an impact. You're probably safe dealing with the latency native to whatever wireless device is in your system unless you're playing yards upon yards away from your monitor.

not so. Please, if you can't hear delay from your own monitor in the sub 30ft range just shake your head and take the ''carrots'' option but don't try to tell me it is insignificant within the practical distances of gigging.

 

[BboogieXVII]

Yes! As we heard straight from the Agedhorse's mouth. (Uh keyboard).

Isn't there a difference between a plucked string developing a tone vs the tone propagating through the air?
The string is a mechanical device with natural attack and decay attributed to the string's particular physical properties?

If a bass wave needed 20 feet to develope wouldn't our basses have to be really long scale?

Acoustics! A lot of what is said about bass tones seems logical yet counter intuitive at the same time. Sooo, I just go with the flow.

 

[BawanaRik]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I have nil experience with roaming large stages. Only a few times I have been positioned 15 to 20ft from my cab and I felt my timing was affected trying to lock in with drums. This tallies with what the author of the article experienced.

Mathematically you can add distance in ft to latency in milliseconds for the total delay between playing and hearing as sound travels 1ft per ms.

So what have you experienced with being remote from your monitor and or system latency?

And the clapping. Oh!

Know your songs And be close to the drummer

 

[Passinwind]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I have nil experience with roaming large stages. Only a few times I have been positioned 15 to 20ft from my cab and I felt my timing was affected trying to lock in with drums. This tallies with what the author of the article experienced.

Mathematically you can add distance in ft to latency in milliseconds for the total delay between playing and hearing as sound travels 1ft per ms.

So what have you experienced with being remote from your monitor and or system latency?

This quote from your link rings true to me:

Actually, research sponsored by the National Science Foundation, through the Stanford University Department of Music, has shown that performers in an ensemble have no problem synchronizing with each other while experiencing latencies as high as 40 ms and even greater. In fact, latencies in the 10 ms to 20 ms range actually have a stabilizing affect on tempo and are thought to be preferred over zero latency.

I very often have been set up at least 20-25 feet from my drummer, often with no mics on the drum kit. Not a problem at all IME, at least after doing it dozens of times. That particular drummer has a strong preference for being able to see my hands though, FWIW.

 

[Downunderwonder]

This quote from your link rings true to me:



I very often have been set up at least 20-25 feet from my drummer, often with no mics on the drum kit. Not a problem at all IME, at least after doing it dozens of times. That particular drummer has a strong preference for being able to see my hands though, FWIW.

you may be conducting the drummer?

It's been a long time since I was in a big orchestra at high school orchestra camp. I recall the spookiness of it being a sonic weapon spread all over the place, and the hall reverberation no doubt added to that. The next year I moved up from back of 1st violins to leading the 2nds and it was much easier going being centrally located. Being right under the conductor probably didn't hurt either.

 

[gumtown]

Your playing adjusts to the distance & latency, keep an eye on the drummers timing (I watch the snare hand) to calibrate the latency compensation, you will easily get used to it.
When I used to use wireless, sometimes I would wander out the front door and into the car park (up to 100 metres/300 feet), that is about my limit for being able to compensate my timing without beginning to play offbeat.
Worst wireless experience at a gig, walked out the side door which closed behind me and had no handle on the outside to open it again.

Any latency you have in wireless is the same if right beside the speaker or far away, what you hear is the physical sound from you speaker arriving latter, with analog wireless, there is no latency.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Your playing adjusts to the distance & latency, keep an eye on the drummers timing (I watch the snare hand) to calibrate the latency compensation, you will easily get used to it.
When I used to use wireless, sometimes I would wander out the front door and into the car park (up to 100 metres/300 feet), that is about my limit for being able to compensate my timing without beginning to play offbeat.
Worst wireless experience at a gig, walked out the side door which closed behind me and had no handle on the outside to open it again.

Any latency you have in wireless is the same if right beside the speaker or far away, what you hear is the physical sound from you speaker arriving latter, with analog wireless, there is no latency.

no way I could compensate like you!

 

[gumtown]

Try experimenting with a delay, set it to 100% delay/no dry, and adjust the time to a few milliseconds and try playing to something (backing track),
then adjust the time longer and try getting used to compensating for the perceived latency.
The only thing you need to do is to lock in with the drums.

 

[foal30]

FWIW
@Downunderwonder
IME massive difference between electric and acoustic drums on stage

 

[beans-on-toast]

The communication protocol could require retransmission of digital packets. Line of sight, obstacles, and interference will affect this. Wireless systems are limited by distance.

Neutrik has a new system that I've been hearing good things about. This is a professional (expensive) product used for satellite speakers for example. Not your typical wireless. Invalid Link Removed. The video illustrates some of the problems that can affect communications.

 

[Downunderwonder]

FWIW
@Downunderwonder
IME massive difference between electric and acoustic drums on stage

how so? Latency in the drum monitoring? In ear or traditional?

 

[MultiScaleMale]

A few milliseconds? No worries. Try ignoring delays coming in a half second later. I should be using IEMs, but there are issues getting frequencies allotted and wired IEMs suck.

 

[CGremlin]

Try experimenting with a delay, set it to 100% delay/no dry, and adjust the time to a few milliseconds and try playing to something (backing track)

Want to have more fun? Set someone up with headphones and a microphone going through a delay, and set the delay to about 300 msec, full wet. Then ask them to say the alphabet.

I can't say that I've ever had much difficulty with delay of any kind. I did one theater performance from the light booth with a wireless (about 60 feet from the orchestra pit), and didn't have any problems staying locked with the orchestra. I'm guessing it's from all the years playing tuba in marching band, where aside from the delay in just getting the instrument to speak (20-30 ms), there were often *horrible* reflections, sometimes close to half a second. When playing/recording into the computer, I usually can't get the delay below about 10 ms without it exhausting the queue and stuttering/crackling. I just deal with it.

 

[Slevage]

The delay is a result of sound moving through air --- not electrons.

 

[Jay2U]

Each foot is about one millisecond delay. More than 20 milliseconds can be heard, so more than 20 ft may be too far.

 

[Bassamatic]

1) Headphones are not the same as a speaker. It is a closed pistonic system with no acoustics. Just lift the headphone a little off your ear and see what happens to the bass.

2. The latency in DIGITAL wireless systems is the delay caused by the A>D conversion process and the additional conversion to the transmission medium, including error correction of packets, etc. and then the D>A conversion in the receiver. It takes TIME to compute that stuff! Latency used to be severe enough that digital wireless mics could be used only for speeches, etc. not for performing. Modern technology has allowed many of the manufacturers to reduce this significantly, but it is STILL THERE to some degree. Only analog systems have no latency.

 

[xk49w]

There have been studies done on the effects of sidetone delay in communications. When it is too long it can cause real problems for the speaker. We limit the sidetone delay in our communication Invalid Link Removed to no more than 10 ms. They typically run less than five.

 

[Coolhandjjl]

2. The latency in DIGITAL wireless systems is the delay caused by the A>D conversion process and the additional conversion to the transmission medium, including error correction of packets, etc. and then the D>A conversion in the receiver. It takes TIME to compute that stuff! Latency used to be severe enough that digital wireless mics could be used only for speeches, etc. not for performing. Modern technology has allowed many of the manufacturers to reduce this significantly, but it is STILL THERE to some degree. Only analog systems have no latency.

Being a software engineer, how the software clocks makes all the difference in the world in latency. Using Date/Time objects vs spec'd refresh rates, the efficiency of the code, it's all a matter of coding style. The better products most likely hired highly experienced software engineers to write more robust code.

 

[Honch]

It's the same with some modelling on computers. When vendros says this or that milliseconds latency are enough because in real life the sound travle 6 ms at 5 feet away from you amp. What people forget is that natural latency are added on top of the digital conversion latency of computer amp modelling. So you have modellings 8-9 ms latency added ON TOP of the natural 5-6 ms latency there is. After 12-15 ms I start to get uncomfortable. On large stages you just have to use in ear monitors or ample bass on stage fills, or wedge monitors.