DNA Owners Group

[5string_phunk]

Alright DNA club, I need your help!

What is the minimum and maximum wattage that you'd feel comfortable running into an 8ohm DNA 2x10, rated at 700W RMS 1400 Peak?

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Here is my current situation, I have an amp that, according to manufacturer specs, runs 500W @ 4ohm and roughly 350W @ ohm. I have a pair of 8ohm DNA 2x10s. Running that amp and a single cab seems to work well. Feels like it's pushing the cab enough to get a solid tone/response etc without really running the risk of blowing a speaker. When I hook both cabs up, however, it loses something. Having done some research, I understand that in the single cab setup, the amp is sending 350W to the cab and when it powers both cabs toegher, they are only getting 250W each...essentially losing 100W to each cab. Is that correct?

I've been looking at new amps and trying to find the right amount of power to successfully run this cab setup in any configuration, single cab or both together.

Any help, knowledge, experiences are greatly appreciated!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Although you are running 250-watts to each cab, which is less than the 350 watts to one cab, That difference in power will only make about a 1db change in volume per cab. HOWEVER, since you are doubling the speaker area by adding the second 210, you are adding 3db to the volume by adding that second cab. This should be noticeably louder but not really what you perceive as twice as loud. Measurably, it is twice as loud because each gain of 3db is twice as loud as the previous signal, but the human ear doesn't hear it as "twice as loud" until there is a 10db difference. No way this should be quieter than running one cab though.

As far as "under-powering" a cab by not running enough power to it, there is NO SUCH THING. Your cabs have an SPL (Sound Pressure Level) that was measured at 100db with 2.83v(1-watt) at 1 meter distance. That means with only 1-watt of power your speaker cab will produce 100db of sound, 1 meter away. Since the master on your amp controls the amount of power delivered to your cabs and 1 watt will deliver 100 db at 1-meter distance, you can't hurt it by not giving it "enough" power.

However, as you start getting louder, each additional 3db of sound requires twice as much power. So, if everything was perfect, you would get the following:
1-watt = 100db - as loud as a jack hammer right next to you.
2-watts = 103db-
4-watts = 106db
8-watts = 109db-
16-watts = 112db- louder than a rock concert
32-watts = 115db
64-watts = 118db
128-watts = 121db- louder than a really loud rock concert. 120db is the threshold of pain
256-watts = 124db
+3db for extra cab = 127db.

Since it takes twice as much power to get that 3db gain in SPL, you would need 512 watts to reach 127 db and 1024-watts to get to 131db. If you actually ran your amp near its maximum, you should be incredibly loud if you're standing within a meter of it. Again, the list above is the theoretically perfect situation and various amps can and will lose some power to heat, but it still gives you a good idea on how this watts to sound level thing works.

Hope that makes some sense.

 

[5string_phunk]

Great info! Thanks!

I was told yesterday by a knowledgeable group of bassists, much more knowledgeable about this topic than I am, that the amp may be working too hard to 'push the speakers' and could potentially damage the head. I typically run it about noon or 1 when in a full band setting, so I don't feel like I'm pushing the amp 'too hard'. The quote was 'When the amps have lesser output than your speakers, you are not driving the speakers...the speakers are sucking the life out of your amp'. Which, being fairly ignorant on this topic, sounds reasonable to me. What are you thoughts on that sentiment?

I love my DNA's but they are definitely lacking 'oomph' that other rigs I've played had. I played a GK Backline 600 > an Ampeg 4x10HLF and it was like thunder every time I plucked a string. That's a 300W @ 4ohm head pushing a cab rated for 500W @ 4ohm.

I would think that I could EASILY get that feeling with the stacked DNA 2x10s, but I'm not.

Is that the head? Class A/B v. Class D power? Just dumb luck?

I desperately want these cabs to work, and feel like they should be more than sufficient, but the more I learn about amp/cab performance and relate it to my situation, the easier it seems to just sell it all off and start over.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

OK, the guys who are telling you that the speakers are "sucking the life out of your amp" are 100% absolutely WRONG! That is total bull. Your speakers don't need much power. They only need 1-watt of power to put out 100db of sound. the fact that they can handle 700-watts each has NOTHING to do with how little they can handle. The folks are thinking that these speaker cabs have high power-handling but low sensitivity and your speakers have high sensitivity.

A speaker cab with low sensitivity will require a lot of power to get loud and if your amp isn't up to it, you can run your amp into clipping trying to "be loud". Your two speakers hooked up together to your amp will have a minimum of 103db sensitivity (sound pressure level) at 1-watt/1-meter (you get the extra 3db by having two of them). Running half the power of your amp into them, you should be well over 120db loud - that is painfully loud, actually causes pain in your ears if you are within 1-meter of it. The combination of the two of those should be really LOUD.

I have the DNS410, which is 106db @1W/1M. So that's 3 db louder than what the combination of your two is. My 410 is a monster and extremely loud with very little actual watts pushed into it. Yours won't be quite as loud, but darn close.

I'm thinking there are some connection problems somewhere because you sure aren't getting the results you should. It will help if you can tell me what amp your using. Also, when you list the amp, let me know what your typical settings are on the amp when you use it. Then I can help with some more specific suggestions to get this sorted out. One other thing you can do as part of the troubleshooting is to hook each speaker up separately and see if they both have about the same level volume with the same settings - they should. You really should have some monster sound coming out of these, so it's worth the effort to try to get it sorted.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Also, I presume you are using speaker cords, not instrument cords to hook these up to your amp? If not, immediately disconnect the instrument cords and replace them with speaker cords (2-wire, unshielded cords). Lamp cords will actually do in a pinch. Instrument cords are shielded and will damage your amp with extended use.

Also a good idea to swap out a couple of different cords to make sure you don't have a bad one.

 

[J.Wolf]

My old DNS410 seemed to really need some horsepower to open up. It killed with my CA6. I sold both to a local funk band player and he said he's in absolute hog heaven.

 

[5string_phunk]

Thanks for confirming that the 'sucking the life outta the amp' discussion was bogus.

In regards to what head I'm using, it's a GK MB500 Fusion. I am definitely using speaker cables with speak-on connectors, going from the back of the head into the top cab, and them out of the top cab into the bottom cab. I typically run my bass in passive mode, my main axe is a US Spector Bolt-on with a Nordstrand Big Split at the neck and MM at the bridge, but it does have an Aguilar OBP-3 running at 9v if I feel like I want a different flavor. As far as the settings on my amp, I pretty much run everything around noon with the 'limiter' and 'deep' switches engaged. I have the contour all the way to the left, which, according to GK, should turn that function completely off.

Honestly, I don't think it's a 'volume' issue as much as it's a lack of 'heft' to the overall feel of the rig. I seem to get a lot more air movement, pant legs/back of shirt moving etc while playing, and can actually feel the sound thru my body with rigs that have the a lot less watts going into the same amount of speakers. Would that have anything to do with the fact that those rigs have all four speakers in the same box versus my setup where they are split into separate cabs?

 

[Rip Van Dan]

All 4 speakers in the same box certainly has something to with it as evidenced by my DNS410 with its SPL of 106db 1W/1M.

You speaker cables are perfect and your EQ doesn't look out of line at all. One of the things about the DNS cabs is that they have a very flat frequency response and amazing clarity. The low end doesn't get "wooly" on them unless you dial in the EQ to do so. One suggestion I would make is to take your low mids and boost them up to about 1:30. Presuming the low mid center is anywhere around 250 to 300Hz, that will give you that "thump in the chest" that you may be looking for. I boost my amp by about 3 clicks at 250Hz and like that sound a lot. It gives me that thump I want and it sits nicely in the mix.

Another thing to look at would be your gain setting. Unfortunately I am not familiar with how the gain system works on your GK amp, but it looks like it is set pretty low. You might want to try turning the gain up and playing around with its levels a bit. On my Eden amps, there's a "set gain" light which flashes with your playing of the lowest and loudest notes when you have it set at the sweet spot. Getting the gain right sends the clearest signal to the power section for it to amplify. Again, I am not familiar with how the current GK gain control works, but you might try playing with that gain setting a bit.

One other thing I'd suggest is to turn your tweeter adjustments up to normal instead of the 10 to 11 o'clock it looks like you have them set. I ran my 410 with the adjustment set at about 10 o'clock and recently saw a You Tube video review of the DNS112 and DNS210 by BassMusicianMagazine.com where they played with those a bit and I tried that on my next rehearsal. I moved it to straight up "normal" and like that sound better. Good news is with the DNS cabs if you try one setting on the tweeter and don't care for it, the control to change it is right on the front.

Give those a shot and see if it helps.

 

[jjk2007]

Thanks for confirming that the 'sucking the life outta the amp' discussion was bogus.

In regards to what head I'm using, it's a GK MB500 Fusion. I am definitely using speaker cables with speak-on connectors, going from the back of the head into the top cab, and them out of the top cab into the bottom cab. I typically run my bass in passive mode, my main axe is a US Spector Bolt-on with a Nordstrand Big Split at the neck and MM at the bridge, but it does have an Aguilar OBP-3 running at 9v if I feel like I want a different flavor. As far as the settings on my amp, I pretty much run everything around noon with the 'limiter' and 'deep' switches engaged. I have the contour all the way to the left, which, according to GK, should turn that function completely off.

Honestly, I don't think it's a 'volume' issue as much as it's a lack of 'heft' to the overall feel of the rig. I seem to get a lot more air movement, pant legs/back of shirt moving etc while playing, and can actually feel the sound thru my body with rigs that have the a lot less watts going into the same amount of speakers. Would that have anything to do with the fact that those rigs have all four speakers in the same box versus my setup where they are split into separate cabs?

I just had to chime in and say that seeing those dual 2X10's gives me a chill up my spine in a good way. My single 2X10 gets plenty loud but I can't imagine the damage I could do with a second one! Good luck getting things sorted out.

 

[jjk2007]

And as I posted earlier, let's hear (or see) some of those compressor settings. Like I said in an earlier post I had a great experience at my gig this past week running the ratio up a bit and having the threshold set at about noon. Gave a nice little squeeze on the lowest/loudest notes and tightened things up a bit.

 

[5string_phunk]

And as I posted earlier, let's hear (or see) some of those compressor settings. Like I said in an earlier post I had a great experience at my gig this past week running the ratio up a bit and having the threshold set at about noon. Gave a nice little squeeze on the lowest/loudest notes and tightened things up a bit.

This is a copy and paste from the GK MB500 Fusion about the description of the limiter switch on the top on the amp. It's the only info in the owners manual about the limiter. I'll ask the GK club and see what responses I get.

'Limiter: When this button is engaged it prevents the power amp from distorting. It is recommended that this feature is used for during high volume applications.'

Honestly, it doesn't do much, but you can tell is 'contains' the signal just slightly better in loud situations than when it's turned off.

 

[5string_phunk]

All 4 speakers in the same box certainly has something to with it as evidenced by my DNS410 with its SPL of 106db 1W/1M.

You speaker cables are perfect and your EQ doesn't look out of line at all. One of the things about the DNS cabs is that they have a very flat frequency response and amazing clarity. The low end doesn't get "wooly" on them unless you dial in the EQ to do so. One suggestion I would make is to take your low mids and boost them up to about 1:30. Presuming the low mid center is anywhere around 250 to 300Hz, that will give you that "thump in the chest" that you may be looking for. I boost my amp by about 3 clicks at 250Hz and like that sound a lot. It gives me that thump I want and it sits nicely in the mix.

Another thing to look at would be your gain setting. Unfortunately I am not familiar with how the gain system works on your GK amp, but it looks like it is set pretty low. You might want to try turning the gain up and playing around with its levels a bit. On my Eden amps, there's a "set gain" light which flashes with your playing of the lowest and loudest notes when you have it set at the sweet spot. Getting the gain right sends the clearest signal to the power section for it to amplify. Again, I am not familiar with how the current GK gain control works, but you might try playing with that gain setting a bit.

One other thing I'd suggest is to turn your tweeter adjustments up to normal instead of the 10 to 11 o'clock it looks like you have them set. I ran my 410 with the adjustment set at about 10 o'clock and recently saw a You Tube video review of the DNS112 and DNS210 by BassMusicianMagazine.com where they played with those a bit and I tried that on my next rehearsal. I moved it to straight up "normal" and like that sound better. Good news is with the DNS cabs if you try one setting on the tweeter and don't care for it, the control to change it is right on the front.

Give those a shot and see if it helps.

Thanks for the tips! The manual tells you to turn up the 'Master A' volume to 3 and 'Gain A' to taste. I've tried both ways and not much difference. As for the volume setting in the pic, that's my single cab, practice at home, gotta keep the neighbors happy volume. I tend to have both around noon or 1 at gigs. I have a gig Fri night, so I'll take a pic after the first set.

As for the tweeter adjustments, I rolled those off a bit, just because there was a faint treble-y sizzle coming thru during my practices, but when I wasn't playing.

I've decided to take the head and cabs into my tech, also the guy I bought the cabs from, and just make sure everything is functioning properly. If it is, then I have the go ahead to borrow my buddies SVT4 Pro to see if a different amp does anything different. I know it's comparing apples to oranges, but as far as I can tell, a single out from the older US SVT4 models into a single cab pushes roughly 350W at 8ohms. That's basically what the GK MB500 Fusion pushes in the same scenario. Worse case, I can grab a GK 1001RB-II from my other buddy and compare all three.

At this point, I'm convinced either there is something wrong with my amp and/or cabs or I just need to find a different head to get me where I want to go.


Thanks again for all the fantastic info! If anything comes to mind, please feel free to share!

 

[S-Bigbottom]

Running that amp and a single cab seems to work well. Feels like it's pushing the cab enough to get a solid tone/response etc without really running the risk of blowing a speaker. When I hook both cabs up, however, it loses something.

Sounds like the speakers may be out of phase. Do the battery test. Do these cabs have phone jacks also? I could not find online, looks like the 4x10 does not but could not find the 2x10's plate.
Plug in one end of your cable to the cab then get a 9v battery and put the + on the tip if you have a phone plug and - on the sleeve, just for a second and watch. The speakers in both cabs should move the same direction. When they do not, you will end up with the results you are talking about. If it is only Speakon get a jumper wire and connect + to + and - to -.
Good luck.

 

[jjk2007]

This is a copy and paste from the GK MB500 Fusion about the description of the limiter switch on the top on the amp. It's the only info in the owners manual about the limiter. I'll ask the GK club and see what responses I get.

'Limiter: When this button is engaged it prevents the power amp from distorting. It is recommended that this feature is used for during high volume applications.'

Honestly, it doesn't do much, but you can tell is 'contains' the signal just slightly better in loud situations than when it's turned off.

Hey @Sir Slapsalot....I appreciate the reply. I was really looking to see what settings my fellow DNA 1350/800 users were using for the compressor circuit. The 1350 has a 2 knob compressor featuring the threshold and ratio adjustments. I've just recently started messing with it and had good success running a lower ratio with a middle of the road threshold that really helps to even things out.

 

[kpc]

This was my thought exactly. Check and make sure both cabs are in faze with one another.

 

[J.Wolf]

Hi guys,

I've been trying to reach Dave and co. about some replacement drivers for a 410, and cant seem to get an email reply or FB message reply. The phone numbers were removed from FB and the website, does anyone know a good way to contact them? thanks

 

[iriegnome]

I had spoken to David several weeks ago about an issue. He was supposed to call me back the next day, but I did not hear from him. Since we know he was recovering, I didn't want to bother him and figured I would get in touch with him soon enough.

 

[J.Wolf]

I didnt realize he was recovering from something.. Hmm, I dont want to bother him, but I am helping a friend who has a DNS410 to get 4 replacement drivers as the cab was dropped and all 4 drivers need replacing. I would like to talk to DNA about it, but honestly wouldnt know which off the shelf drivers to recommend anyways.

 

[iriegnome]

A few posts back i think someone mentioned it. He is usually pretty good getting back to people via email.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I didnt realize he was recovering from something.. Hmm, I dont want to bother him, but I am helping a friend who has a DNS410 to get 4 replacement drivers as the cab was dropped and all 4 drivers need replacing. I would like to talk to DNA about it, but honestly wouldnt know which off the shelf drivers to recommend anyways.

Sorry to say, there are no "off-the-shelf" drivers for DNA cabs. As he did with Eden, he develops the speakers and cabs himself and there are a number of unique properties to both. If I recall correctly he uses 4" voice coils on them. Trying to put different speakers in that cab would undoubtedly turn out poorly because of the flared and textured porting that he uses (no one else has yet) which gives much higher air speed and changes the tuning that you are normally limited to with a normal shelf port.