Do away with dogmatism

[edgewise]

agreed, you gotta know the rules to break em. But I will say this:
Newbies regularly post questions like "what does all that I-ii-V-I" stuff mean?" or "how do I use modes?" etc... In those case, "do away with dogma" is a useless and uninformative response. If someone doesn't know theory, then discouraging them is certainly not helpful.[/I]

Thank you Mambo4.

I wish I had said it that way.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

But the point still stands- Chinese and English share some of the same phonemes.

Two different types of music have the same relation; arabic music is not western music, but they do share a few elements.

Yes you are absolutely correct, everything is exactly like everything else, except in the ways that they are different.

 

[tranceFusion]

look, theory isn't the end-all, be-all, but if you don't think it is important, than find me a player who is great at "improv'ing" with random players and has no theoretical knowledge.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't have any supernatural forces guiding my playing. I've never seen someone hum a tune and then be handed an instrument for the very first time and play it. There has to be some kind of context to play within/from. Vic Wooten often says that you should play what you hear inside of you - that's fine if you are a gifted individual who has been playing the instrument since before they can speak.. I don't think that's the average player.

If I go into a jam and I identify the key, or (Even better) the chord progression, then I know what I can play without sounding like crap. It doesn't have to necessarily fall inside the box, but I know what the different intervals sound like and how they match up with what the other plays are playing.

If you are simply playing "what sounds good", that is assuming that you have to hear it first to determine that it sounds good or bad. At that point I might have played a bad note. There are alot of times when I would prefer to get it right the first time. Sure there are times I hit a "wrong" note and it sounds good, but there's way more times when I hit a wrong note and it sound bad.

So its all about context and having tools to help you. It is like using mnemonics to remember state capitals.. it is just a shortcut there to help you when you need.

 

[Michael Case]

But the point still stands- Chinese and English share some of the same phonemes.

Two different types of music have the same relation; arabic music is not western music, but they do share a few elements.

 

[Michael Case]

look, theory isn't the end-all, be-all, but if you don't think it is important, than find me a player who is great at "improv'ing" with random players and has no theoretical knowledge.

I don't know about you guys, but I don't have any supernatural forces guiding my playing. I've never seen someone hum a tune and then be handed an instrument for the very first time and play it. There has to be some kind of context to play within/from. Vic Wooten often says that you should play what you hear inside of you - that's fine if you are a gifted individual who has been playing the instrument since before they can speak.. I don't think that's the average player.

If I go into a jam and I identify the key, or (Even better) the chord progression, then I know what I can play without sounding like crap. It doesn't have to necessarily fall inside the box, but I know what the different intervals sound like and how they match up with what the other plays are playing.

If you are simply playing "what sounds good", that is assuming that you have to hear it first to determine that it sounds good or bad. At that point I might have played a bad note. There are alot of times when I would prefer to get it right the first time. Sure there are times I hit a "wrong" note and it sounds good, but there's way more times when I hit a wrong note and it sound bad.

So its all about context and having tools to help you. It is like using mnemonics to remember state capitals.. it is just a shortcut there to help you when you need.

DOWN WITH MAKING SENSE!

 

[SpawnofHastur]

Yes you are absolutely correct, everything is exactly like everything else, except in the ways that they are different.

Good way to miss my point there, lad.

English and Chinese have the same purpose: they have different means to achieving this purpose, but this purpose is eventually achieved. This purpose, conveying information. Hell, they even share some aspects.

Music and, say, auto repair do not have the same purpose. That is plain to see.

However- much like Chinese and English, traditional, twelve-tone-to-the-octave western music has the same purpose as, say, 24 tone to the octave music, or 43 tone to the octave music. And, funnily enough, again like Chinese and English, managed to share some aspects; pitches, rhythms, and so on.

No matter WHAT we do musically, what tools we do it with- what tonal system, what chords, what instrument, the purpose is the same: to make something that sounds good and makes the people listening FEEL good.

I don't care if I use thousand-tone-to-the-octave, completely weird chords with 15 different pitches in it. As long as that purpose is fulfilled, it's STILL music.

Chinese and English are different, yes. But they're both STILL languages, and both fulfil their purpose, and even manage to share stuff while doing it.

 

[mstott25]

Good way to miss my point there, lad.

English and Chinese have the same purpose: they have different means to achieving this purpose, but this purpose is eventually achieved. This purpose, conveying information. Hell, they even share some aspects.

Music and, say, auto repair do not have the same purpose. That is plain to see.

However- much like Chinese and English, traditional, twelve-tone-to-the-octave western music has the same purpose as, say, 24 tone to the octave music, or 43 tone to the octave music. And, funnily enough, again like Chinese and English, managed to share some aspects; pitches, rhythms, and so on.

No matter WHAT we do musically, what tools we do it with- what tonal system, what chords, what instrument, the purpose is the same: to make something that sounds good and makes the people listening FEEL good.

I don't care if I use thousand-tone-to-the-octave, completely weird chords with 15 different pitches in it. As long as that purpose is fulfilled, it's STILL music.

Chinese and English are different, yes. But they're both STILL languages, and both fulfil their purpose, and even manage to share stuff while doing it.

listening to my engine after it gets fixed makes me feel good too. don't discount auto repair from this feel good enterprise that language and music get to participate in.

 

[Michael Case]

Good way to miss my point there, lad.

English and Chinese have the same purpose: they have different means to achieving this purpose, but this purpose is eventually achieved. This purpose, conveying information. Hell, they even share some aspects.

Music and, say, auto repair do not have the same purpose. That is plain to see.

However- much like Chinese and English, traditional, twelve-tone-to-the-octave western music has the same purpose as, say, 24 tone to the octave music, or 43 tone to the octave music. And, funnily enough, again like Chinese and English, managed to share some aspects; pitches, rhythms, and so on.

No matter WHAT we do musically, what tools we do it with- what tonal system, what chords, what instrument, the purpose is the same: to make something that sounds good and makes the people listening FEEL good.

I don't care if I use thousand-tone-to-the-octave, completely weird chords with 15 different pitches in it. As long as that purpose is fulfilled, it's STILL music.

Chinese and English are different, yes. But they're both STILL languages, and both fulfil their purpose, and even manage to share stuff while doing it.

What is your point?

Are you saying that because I speak English I can understand Chinese?

Talk bass gets stranger and stranger all the time.

 

[Michael Case]

listening to my engine after it gets fixed makes me feel good too. don't discount auto repair from this feel good enterprise that language and music get to participate in.

Octave - Octane

The parallels are frightening!

 

[Chris K]

Being the one to have started this thread, I would like to thank everybody for their contributions, regardless of course of their opinions. I can honestly say you guys helped me to reassess my views on the role of music theory. Right now I would put it this way:

Theory is good:
- when used as system for musical communication, to pass on experience, to teach and learn
- as a means of understanding the beauty of music, deepening the appreciation of it
- to support our musical ear in practical play

Theory is bad:
- if it limits the freedom of musical expression
- if it fails to get absorbed into practical play
- if its vast proportions discourage beginning players

Thank you, peace and long life to all.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Yes, things are good, unless they are bad. Then they are bad, of course, unless they are good. In which case, they are good. Unless they happen to be bad....

 

[Chris K]

Gutta lavat lapidem

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I'll stick with cavat...

 

[mstott25]

Being the one to have started this thread, I would like to thank everybody for their contributions, regardless of course of their opinions. I can honestly say you guys helped me to reassess my views on the role of music theory. Right now I would put it this way:

Theory is good:
- when used as system for musical communication, to pass on experience, to teach and learn
- as a means of understanding the beauty of music, deepening the appreciation of it
- to support our musical ear in practical play

Theory is bad:
- if it limits the freedom of musical expression
- if it fails to get absorbed into practical play
- if its vast proportions discourage beginning players

Thank you, peace and long life to all.

You can live again, the shackles have been removed. You're welcome.

 

[Chris K]

Thank you!

 

[SpawnofHastur]

What is your point?

Are you saying that because I speak English I can understand Chinese?

Talk bass gets stranger and stranger all the time.

Not quite. I'm saying that you can use either to get your point across effectively.

Same with music, and the different styles that deviate from western music.

I suppose another way of looking at it is: saying that you MUST learn western music theory and only western music theory is like saying people MUST learn to speak English and only English, which discounts the possibilities of other alternatives- the maqam system, say, or Chinese.

That's the analogy I'm trying to make.

It makes sense in my head, but the problem with that is that I think in right angles to most folks.

 

[Pacman]

Not quite. I'm saying that you can use either to get your point across effectively.

Not if the people you're speaking to only speak English.

Same with music, and the different styles that deviate from western music.

I suppose another way of looking at it is: saying that you MUST learn western music theory and only western music theory is like saying people MUST learn to speak English and only English, which discounts the possibilities of other alternatives- the maqam system, say, or Chinese.

That's the analogy I'm trying to make.

It makes sense in my head, but the problem with that is that I think in right angles to most folks.

All this is well and good, *if* your audience (and the people you're having a conversation with (the band) speak both Chinese and English. It all breaks down if you're speaking Chinese while everyone else is speaking english.

 

[UncleBalsamic]

You're going to summon Jeff Berlin again...

 

[Michael Case]

Not quite. I'm saying that you can use either to get your point across effectively.

I have to go with Pacman on this one.

Same with music, and the different styles that deviate from western music.

I suppose another way of looking at it is: saying that you MUST learn western music theory and only western music theory is like saying people MUST learn to speak English and only English, which discounts the possibilities of other alternatives- the maqam system, say, or Chinese.

Well to the best of my knowledge nobody said one needs to learn ONLY western music theory, but if your gonna play music based in western music theory it's a good idea to START WITH WESTERN MUSIC THEORY.

My point is this; say you're a businessman and you've got a meeting with the head of Sony. You spend a month preparing your presentation, buy a really nifty suit. You show up to the meeting and find the person you're meeting with only speaks Japanese, do you think your High School Spanish will help?

I know you want to a rebel and go against the "machine," but your point is nothing.

 

[Asher S]

Yes you are absolutely correct, everything is exactly like everything else, except in the ways that they are different.

Sig-worthy!