do cables make a difference in sound?

[blockinlay]

We all have our opinions.
I've had plenty of cables go bad. They all had lifetime warranties. I fixed them, and gave them away with a guitar or amp I sold, or I tossed them. It's usually the Chinese made plug that fails.
I think that no matter how good your cable is, there will always be some other low quality wire component in your chain.
I try not to use too many components, and not too long of a cable, just enough.
I make my own using Audioquest blue directional cable, and Switchcraft ends.
Never did get the directional gimmick, but I still run it in the direction of the arrow.
I use really fat speaker cable, and have plans to wire a few speaker jacks to also have neutrick as an alternate. I solder my speaker wires.

 

[savit260]

I've had cords that seemed to roll off a lot of the top end, and others that didn't.

I prefer to not have the top end muted. This has nothing to do with the price of the cord either. Seems to be a bigger deal with guitar than bass for me anyway. I've trashed a good cord in favor of a cheapo that just plane sounded better to me. Would anyone in the audience care one way or the other ? I doubt it.

I use Monsters only because of the warranty, and easy availability to swap them out. I go through about one a year. Bought one about 10 years ago, and have swapped it out for replacement numourous times.

Guitar player uses Planet Waves (also with a lifetime warranty) and goes through about two or three a year.

I'm sure there are better cables out there, but being able to swing into most any guitar store on the way to a show for replacement when needed has it's benifits.

 

[JanusZarate]

Keep science out of our music! It doesn't belong there!

 

[guizzy]

Keep science out of our music! It doesn't belong there!

Oh yeah?

What about Math Rock, then?

 

[JanusZarate]

It's a damned abomination, just like bassists who don't use Fender basses and Ampeg amps, or bassists who use a pick, or even bassists who try to stand out in the mix.

 

[Hamerguy]

To me there is only one difference, some break fast, others not so fast. If there is an audible improvement I can't hear it, doesn't matter anyway because if it is just nuances only it gets buried by the other instruments. In the audience nobody honors your expenses for "better" cables, most of them can't hear any difference between a J or P even (except the "federal musician of investigation"). As for good audio cables, what does it really enhance when listening to Sgt. Pepper, Tull, Floyd, Crimson etc.? They all used crummy equipment to record and play compared to today's standards (okay, not all, but most). I mean I love this music too, but that doesn't mean I want to hear Paul McCartney tap the rhythm to "Fixing A Hole". End of rant (my that is, others are still welcome, LOL).

 

[vespasian1]

"You don't WANT to have scientific data. It might controvert your superstitious preconceived notions.'

OK, since you seem to know all about it, show me some data that proves me wrong.

BS. No pre-conceived notions involved. When I bought my first pair of decent cables, I didn' expect to hear any appreciabe difference. I did. I was surprised.

But, since you seem to know all about it, show me some data that proves me wrong.

It is not necessary to rewire your whole house either. Where do you get your info? I get mine from many years of first hand experience, and several expensive mistakes, because I didn't have know-it-alls with little or no experience (Ahem) to advise me.

The wiring in your house contains all kinds of electronic garbage. A decent power cord, especially when coupled with a decent power conditioner, will filter out a great deal of it.

I auditioned Paradigms, and rejected them due to lack of transparency.

My system consits of:

B&W Nautilus 804 speakers.
Bryston 3B SSt Amp.
Sony XA 777 ES CD/SACD player
Rogue Audio 66 Magnum Tube Pre Amp
Velodine VA 12/15 MK II Subwoofer

When you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

I do agree that components are most important. But if your cables don't have sufficient transparency, you will lose a lot of the music.

And I'd rather listen to "half an oboe", than half an ass. Whoever made that comment is obviously more interested in hearing himself talk, than he is about learning anything. It's a shame, because he obvioulsy knows nothing about the subject.

Jackass.

 

[RicoDirenzo]

Many people believe that Monster makes amazing cables. This is largley due to the fact that Monster tells everyone that their cables are amazing, and people are suckers. Monster doesn't have some magic that no one else has. Use quality cable and quality connectors and you'll have every bit as good cable as the one from Monster. You can make them yourself, or support a small guy like Link Removed, or buy any decent cable at your local music store (many come with a lifetime warranty)

In addition to their marketing hype, I also have a serious problem with the way they conduct business. Do a search for "Monster Cables Lawsuit". Plenty to read about.

No difference at all! I bought one only because if I step on it or break it or it fails I get a new one right off the shelf for nada. Otherwise, use a whatever cable.

 

[Morrog]

Invalid Link Removed
at this site you can calculate the high frequency dropoff of a cable.
a good capacitance (lower is better) at a constant cable length (say 5m) and impedance (say 20k) means a higher frequency dropoff.
which (depending on the frequency) is audible.

so standard rule is: good cable capacitance, good connector, good shielding, good soldering = good sound

as far is i know

 

[Zureta]

The problem is, this is not a debate where both sides cannot be proven right or wrong. There is a clear methodology that exists specifically for this situation; the double-blind test.

One side refuse to submit their claims to scrutiny, and is consistantly proven wrong when they try, all the while claiming that proof is irrelevant. The other side sticks to reasonable scientific methodology to eliminate bias.

Nothing against your point (or your point of view). I tend to be more of a disbeliever than a believer, myself.

What I'm getting at is that things like "does it last longer" or "is the lifetime guarantee worth the money" can be debated with logic and reason. But when you get to the extremely personal and subjective level of "it's impossible to hear it, you gullible fool! look at these charts! / I can hear it just fine even if your ignorant asinine ears can't, learn to listen!", it's simply going nowhere.

It stops being the kind of argument where rationality has a place and starts being about what each person believes, arguments be damned.

You might as well try to use rational logic in an atheism vs. christianity debate to try and prove/disprove the concept of God. People still try to do this all the friggin' time (even right here in TalkBass sometimes ), and see how well those arguments work on convincing the other side!

When it starts being about personal belief no amount of logic or science will sway someone who is firmly convinced of something. Just my opinion, of course. But don't try to convince me otherwise, it won't work.

 

[Hamerguy]

"You don't WANT to have scientific data. It might controvert your superstitious preconceived notions.'

OK, since you seem to know all about it, show me some data that proves me wrong.

BS. No pre-conceived notions involved. When I bought my first pair of decent cables, I didn' expect to hear any appreciabe difference. I did. I was surprised.

But, since you seem to know all about it, show me some data that proves me wrong.

It is not necessary to rewire your whole house either. Where do you get your info? I get mine from many years of first hand experience, and several expensive mistakes, because I didn't have know-it-alls with little or no experience (Ahem) to advise me.

The wiring in your house contains all kinds of electronic garbage. A decent power cord, especially when coupled with a decent power conditioner, will filter out a great deal of it.

I auditioned Paradigms, and rejected them due to lack of transparency.

My system consits of:

B&W Nautilus 804 speakers.
Bryston 3B SSt Amp.
Sony XA 777 ES CD/SACD player
Rogue Audio 66 Magnum Tube Pre Amp
Velodine VA 12/15 MK II Subwoofer

When you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

I do agree that components are most important. But if your cables don't have sufficient transparency, you will lose a lot of the music.

And I'd rather listen to "half an oboe", than half an ass. Whoever made that comment is obviously more interested in hearing himself talk, than he is about learning anything. It's a shame, because he obvioulsy knows nothing about the subject.

Jackass.

If you take subject to my post, all I can say is "TAKE IT EASY". This is an internet forum talk, so it should be a bit more pal-able. There are other places better suited to get your angry feelings out Here are many people who disagree on things but might agree on other things. If it works for you, well, fine. Doesn't work for me? You can live with that fact, I certainly can. No need to teach anybody, nor to call anybody "JACKASS".:scowl:

 

[mongo2]

Jackass.

Do we really need the namecalling?

 

[guizzy]

Nothing against your point (or your point of view). I tend to be more of a disbeliever than a believer, myself.

What I'm getting at is that things like "does it last longer" or "is the lifetime guarantee worth the money" can be debated with logic and reason. But when you get to the extremely personal and subjective level of "it's impossible to hear it, you gullible fool! look at these charts! / I can hear it just fine even if your ignorant asinine ears can't, learn to listen!", it's simply going nowhere.

It stops being the kind of argument where rationality has a place and starts being about what each person believes, arguments be damned.

You might as well try to use rational logic in an atheism vs. christianity debate to try and prove/disprove the concept of God. People still try to do this all the friggin' time (even right here in TalkBass sometimes ), and see how well those arguments work on convincing the other side!

When it starts being about personal belief no amount of logic or science will sway someone who is firmly convinced of something. Just my opinion, of course. But don't try to convince me otherwise, it won't work.

I'm perfectly fine with people believing what they want; the problem is when these beliefs are being pushed as a truth, and used to ensnare naïve people into spending ungodly amounts of money and time in what amounts to snakeoil.

Hearing is subjective, but subjectivity can be nullified by a statistically-relevant double-blind test. If there IS a difference, a "golden eared" audiophile should be able to tell even without knowing what cable is being used.

Admittedly, I have very rarely seen these arguments ending up with one side admitting they are wrong, BUT, even if it's often unpleasant, it's always useful having a little verbal sparring on this subject, to have both sides put up their arguments, so that someone still on the fence can see which side has reasonnable arguments and which side argues that putting their 500$+ speaker cables on little cable stands "improve the soundstage" on music that was produced at a studio which uses cable costing a tiny fraction of that.

 

[ggunn]

Do we really need the namecalling?

Apparently he does.

 

[megadan]

One thing I've always found really funny about audiophiles is how they're willing to pay much more for their equipment than professional studios do.

Bam!

How ironic that an audiophile will claim to have a higher quality cable or preamp than the studio that recorded the material he's listening to.

I guess the cables just magically adapt to whatever CD you're listening to and add back in whatever frequencies were lost in the original recording

 

[Dan Knowlton]

Quality is key in most things and cables are no exception. Plus Monster makes amazing A/V cables without a doubt, but something made for bass makes a difference?

I guess you were the guy PT Barnum was referring to!

In case you don't understand - "There's a sucker born every minute" is often credited to PT Barnum.

The only thing Monster and Bose do exceptionally well is market their product. Both companies make products that border on "bottom line" when you compare them to comparably priced gear but get stores to market them because of the markup.

Monster cables ruin your jacks because the barrel is oversized and stretches out the contacts, the soldering job is mediocre and the cable is NOTHING special.

Go ahead, spend your money and feel good that you helped prove PT Barnum's point.

Dan K.

 

[Derek Kiernan]

If we're talking about instrument cable, it absolutely does effect the sound. If you have high inductance reacting with capacitance in a passive setup to form narrow bandwidth resonances in our most sensitive hearing range (usually from 2 - 5 kHz), you absolutely will hear it, if your cabinet produces that range in any acceptable way.

RLC Circuit (wiki page)

You can't amend that type of coloration with EQ to get a flat response very easily.

In terms of speaker cables, etc, the argument is much more difficult

 

[mongo2]

I guess you were the guy PT Barnum was referring to!

In case you don't understand - "There's a sucker born every minute" is often credited to PT Barnum.

And apropos to this thread, it's an incorrect attribution.

 

[ggunn]

"You don't WANT to have scientific data. It might controvert your superstitious preconceived notions.'

OK, since you seem to know all about it, show me some data that proves me wrong.

BS. No pre-conceived notions involved. When I bought my first pair of decent cables, I didn' expect to hear any appreciabe difference. I did. I was surprised.

But, since you seem to know all about it, show me some data that proves me wrong.

It is not necessary to rewire your whole house either. Where do you get your info? I get mine from many years of first hand experience, and several expensive mistakes, because I didn't have know-it-alls with little or no experience (Ahem) to advise me.

The wiring in your house contains all kinds of electronic garbage. A decent power cord, especially when coupled with a decent power conditioner, will filter out a great deal of it.

I auditioned Paradigms, and rejected them due to lack of transparency.

My system consits of:

B&W Nautilus 804 speakers.
Bryston 3B SSt Amp.
Sony XA 777 ES CD/SACD player
Rogue Audio 66 Magnum Tube Pre Amp
Velodine VA 12/15 MK II Subwoofer

When you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk.

I do agree that components are most important. But if your cables don't have sufficient transparency, you will lose a lot of the music.

And I'd rather listen to "half an oboe", than half an ass. Whoever made that comment is obviously more interested in hearing himself talk, than he is about learning anything. It's a shame, because he obvioulsy knows nothing about the subject.

Jackass.

Well, of course no one can prove that you don't hear any difference; that's the textbook definition of subjectivity. If you really think that a power cable makes a difference in your sound, then by all means open up your wallet. I'm certainly never going to do that; there has never been a definitive test (that I know of - if you know of one please enlighten me) that shows empirically that such a thing can make any difference whatsoever. Likewise for copper being "warmer" than silver. I just don't buy it, in any sense of the word.

(By the way, I am not totally inexperienced in such matters; I hold a BSEE, a PE license, and I have been working in audio in various capacities for more than 30 years.)

When claims like these are made, the burden of proof is on those who make the claims. Anecdotal evidence is not proof (neither is blustering and namecalling), especially when it comes to something as subjective as hearing. Again, I am not saying that you aren't hearing a difference, or thinking that you hear a difference - which are in fact the same thing - and if it's worth it to you to spend your money on that stuff, then go for it.

If you hear a difference, then it's real to you, and whether anyone else hears it is irrelevant. You can't prove that it's real, I can't prove that it's not real (a negative is impossible to prove), and there are folks in the audio biz that make tons of money on that very ambiguity. Give yours to them if you want; it's no skin off my nose.

 

[onlyclave]

Bam!

How ironic that an audiophile will claim to have a higher quality cable or preamp than the studio that recorded the material he's listening to.

I guess the cables just magically adapt to whatever CD you're listening to and add back in whatever frequencies were lost in the original recording

This argument is irrelevant since the mastering labs (ie Masterdisk) use some very high end audiophile equipment for playback during mastering.

Also, there is no 1:1 comparison of studio mic preamp : audiophile hifi preamp.