Do you need music theory?

[gln1955]

You wanna be a musician or play cover songs lol?

Sounds like someone who knows theory but doesn't have much of a grasp on real world music.

 

[basslayer]

I use it, intuitively, all the time; playing a style of music makes the theory of said music an instinct. One may use different labels for a given phenomenon, but the ideas behind them would arrive at the same conclusions.

 

[mambo4]

because I've been playing so long by ear I CAN identify intervals on my bass neck. Just not on paper.

Some would say laziness is the only reason not to learn theory, but I think "too busy successfully gigging, writing and recording" is pretty legit.

Still think you should try though...give this a go

 

[Droopy_TX]

I think what puts-off many to the idea of learning theory is not understanding the descriptive vs. prescriptive aspect mentioned above. Artists don't want to be told what they can or can't do. So, firstly, one needs to understand that theory doesn't do that.

Secondly, music theory can be a very deep field of interest. It might seem like an overwhelming subject, and may be difficult for new students to find an appropriate starting point. Also, some theory "nuts" get very carried away with it.

I would suggest that there are roughly four levels of knowledge:
(and, of course, this is an over-simplification)

Novice: Someone completely musically illiterate, or maybe plays by ear. They know what they like, and may know to reproduce it; but don't know why. They may have a basic knowledge of chords and scales, but mainly play using patterns.

Intermediate: Understands major/minor scales, scale degrees/intervals, how to build basic triads and extended chords, and knows the diatonic chords associated with scales (i.e. the basic numbering system). Understands basic time signatures (3/4, 4/4, 6/8, etc.). May still play mainly using patterns, but understands the associated notes.

Advanced: Building on basic knowledge (memorizing chord spelling, circle of fifths, etc): expands scales into modes; complex harmonies and (poly)rhythms; chords substitutions; formal structures; voice leading; etc.

Expert ("nerd”, "nut"): Musical analysis, orchestration, arrangement, etc.; Lots of arguing with other theory "nuts"

I would suggest that every musician should aspire to at least the Intermediate level.
This level of knowledge does not take that long to acquire; and, if you are already a musician, it is really only describing/explaining those things you already do. Understanding what you are doing allows you to more quickly and easily convey your ideas to other musicians.

Moving to a more advanced level, as I describe it, can require a reasonable amount of memorization, but an Intermediate student who understands the underlying concepts, can do things manually (e.g. determining diatonic chords, building extended chords, transposing keys, etc.) without having that stuff memorized.

Becoming Advanced in theory is not necessary; but, it will provide you with a better understanding of what is possible, and expands your writing potential. Again, theory doesn't tell you what to do, but it can provide you with avenues to explore that you might never traverse if you stay to familiar paths of what you know.

If you go down the music theory path, and find you love it, you can move to more Expert levels; but, try not to become the pedant that is always quoting theory. That is the sure-fire way to turn off your audience to music theory.

 

[Bruiser Stone]

carotene suppositories

Now that’s a band name.

 

[Charlzm]

It's like knowing grammar and vocabulary; you may be able to make yourself understood in most common situations without extensive knowledge. It depends on what you want to do with the language.

 

[RocknRay]

Ah yes...memories of hazy kwazy college dorm days...the guitarist with the Dan Fogelburg hair calls G7, then looks over to me and explains “G” with a little smirk that impresses the starstruck hippie girl. Okay bro, soon I’ll be able to play over Eb min maj #9#11#13! So there! Realistically, if you can play convincingly over a Real Book chart with decent jazzers, you probably know enough theory for most situations. I do wish I had started with high school band though, and learned to read notes. It’s hard now!

 

[Liam Wald]

A good understanding of music theory gives you the ability to know where a musical progression is headed and all of the options of getting there that you have along the way. It is especially useful for players who play solos, arpeggios, and melodic passages within the framework of a composition.
You don't necessarily need to study it formally although doing so will help your progress as a musician develop more quickly.
Learning it can also be acquired through the daily practice of playing an instrument if you know the notes of the fingerboard and think consciously about the notes you are playing and then recognizing their relationships to one another.

 

[Liam Wald]

It's like knowing grammar and vocabulary; you may be able to make yourself understood in most common situations without extensive knowledge. It depends on what you want to do with the language.

This is a really great analogy. You don't need to know grammar and vocabulary to communicate but you are probably not likely to write a good book or get a job as a journalist.

 

[Turnaround]

If you don't know what the rules are, it'll be hit and miss to break them. To be truly bad, you gotta break some rules.

 

[logdrum]

Not sure I understand this, don't know who Bobby Vega is, and the only jazz I ever played are standards . By ear. I couldn't sit in with a jazz band without looking like a fool - but never wanted to do that.

I never studied theory, but i know the notes (most of them) on my bass neck and can scribble cheat notes when necessary. I was never in a situation that required me to read from charts.

I also wish I knew theory. Not saying it's a bad thing. I'd probably not have to work nearly as hard as I have to have some success if I DID thoroughly understand it.

I just worked ridiculously hours and honed some other skills in order to accomplish the things I have. I still work ridiculously hard. But I love it.

It is a complement man. Noticed I was the first one to like your post. I am with you. Bobby Vega has been on many records and played with Tower of Power etc. He was an ear player but was really good hi inability to sight read was not a hindrance. Jaco was self taught too, he taught himself to read and then write. Pat Metheny, the same and the University of Miami asked both of them to teach without a music degree.

So if you want to go beyond and compose and have others play your music, reading and writing out charts although NOT required can only help.

 

[IamGroot]

I think the OP wasn't clear. It sounded as though he was asking if we need to study music theory, or be able to speak theoretically about what we do. Neither apply to me.

OP here.

My intent was whether one "used it". Didn't't specify whether it was during playing or analyzing off line.

No intentions on whether it needed to be studied.

 

[wraub]

I am much like Mr. Nerve... long playing history, recorded and toured, written and sold, but minimal hard theory knowledge.
I know the fretboard, I have good ears and feel, and I play a lot.

 

[GBBSbassist]

Absolutely you need music theory to be in a cover band. This reminds of the time my band was going to learn and play "Since U Been Gone" by Kelly Clarkson, but unfortunately, we couldn't pull it off because combined as a band, we didn't have enough knowledge of music theory.

 

[funkymonk13]

And here you have it....

First, I'd have to count those notes out on the bass neck . Second, I'm still not even certain if that includes sharps.

On the flip side, because I've been playing so long by ear I CAN identify intervals on my bass neck. Just not on paper. I know the difference in sound between a G and a D#. I can hear it and play it, or know how to play it if those are the notes I'm looking for. I just can't write on paper or tell you what I did, outside of telling you the notes I play.



And no, I'm not proud of that.

I think its math anxiety or something. My brain just shuts down when it comes to remembering what's what on paper, or numerically.

That being said, of course those who understand theory inside and out have a clear advantage over those who don't.

I'm not knocking it, nor saying I don't know what I'm doing. I just can't talk or write about what I'm doing outside of posts like these .

Man I read through your posts in the thread and that’s some pretty mind blowing stuff.
The thing that’s crazy to me is that after all that you didn’t just pick some of it up; I feel like that’s what happens to most musicians who don’t really purposely set out to learn it. I don’t know if you were actively avoiding it or maybe just over thinking it.
intervals and chord progressions for example You don’t even have to look at it mathematically at all, you could also just memorize the relationships of the notes by name in your head, by what they sound like or the shapes they make on the fretboard.
I’m sure you already do some of these in your head.

At the end of the day music is art and you don’t really need anything other than your creativity and the desire to make something. I’m def in the camp that you don’t need to learn theory at all and at the end of the day just do whatever works for you. It’s just that for most people they’re gonna struggle without knowing the basics(which is enough for 99% of people) so it’s a huge short cut.

I do think theory is something that needs to be taught loosely and people need to be taught that it’s a tool to teach you how to hear common patterns in music and not a set of rules.

 

[grimjim]

Anyone playing bass uses theory, even if they don't know they're doing it. I have wondered this before. Like take an old Mississippi blues guy. Does he know what a minor scale is? No, but he plays the crap out of it. He knows the notes go well together, theory just tells you why.

 

[Yellow Bang66]

No one said both weren’t valid. Hell of a lot easier to learn covers and play with others (me....very little theory which I’m trying to change) than hanging in with the jazz crowd in a jam situation.

Yeah. I agree, I use it more than I think I do. It's like thinking about how much algebra do you use everyday. more often than you think you do. To answer your Question do you "Need" it... no. but You will end up using it, whether you realize it or not .it helps understanding what or why you're playing certain notes( chord/scale tones). so yes. it will make learning songs much easier. but it also depends what type of music you want to play or understand. It doesn't hurt to know. fortunately, I had a really good teacher, who broke it down very well, so most concepts were easily understood. unfortunately some music teachers don't, they teach it like advanced chemistry for geniuses! and most musicians, don't have the required prerequisites to take advantage of the teaching. I usually tell my friends or anyone wanting to learn "theory". is buy a a book or take an intro class, but don't worry about it too much. or get intimadated by " Music Theory" and terms like circle of fifths. It's pretty basic knowledge that can get very complex easily.
I treat like when kids ask about sex. you know its time to get into it when they start asking those, Why & How questions... yeah, I went there. when A little knowledge can be very dangerous or wonderful! my advice get a good basic "Intro" book to start (to lay a solid foundation). rather than to jump in head first into applied college courses. GL

 

[-Asdfgh-]

In theory I do, but in practice I don't.

 

[Smooth_bass88]

one of my all-time favorites

 

[JRA]

My intent was whether one "used it". Didn't't specify whether it was during playing or analyzing off line. No intentions on whether it needed to be studied.

i'm glad you chimed in with your "intentions." for seven pages i'm reading what folks think of knowing/using/communicating as theory is really 'music fundamentals'...not music theory!

i don't think i've ever used "theory" except in conversation with a few bada$$ players, say: after the gig! even then: we'd be talking in everyday language because our references to the "theoretical" were the same/similar.

most of the things we talk about on TB are "music fundamentals." the stuff many of us think "all musicians need to know." there are some real "theory threads" posted, but they are few. the fundamentals are the 'rules.' the theory is why you'd conform to them or break them.

If you don't know what the rules are, it'll be hit and miss to break them. To be truly bad, you gotta break some rules.

per the thread content, regardless of the OP's intentions: reading music is not "music theory." but it is a useful skill if and when you need it! also, IME: ears tump mental (e.g., joe nerve, and tons of other truly remarkable musicians)...so "theory" is absolutely not necessary! in fact (IME): many who purport as "experts in theory" are but average players (by their own admission!).

finally: of the two best piano players i've ever gigged with steadily, one was a music educated cat who "knew it all" (and a great sight-reader) and the other was only street-schooled, couldn't read a lick, and could speak no "theory" (as term the is being used here).