It's been going on longer than that. If you're really wondering how it is we're stupid enough to let things get to the state they're in consider that in 1915 both the Rockefeller Foundation and the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching each spent more on public education than the US government did in that year. Also consider that from 1955 to 1991 the US pupil/teacher ratio dropped 40%, the average salary of teachers rose (in real inflation adjusted terms) 50%, the expenditure per student rose (inflation adjusted) 350%. In contrast according to US military induction statistics functional literacy of potential recruits went from 96% in 1944 to 73% in 1970.
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Do you or Beck support OWS?
- Thread starter Subversiva
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"Who gave the conglomerates and corporations all the money they've ever wanted?"
No, it was NOT the CONSUMERS. It was the POLITICIANS who were purchased (campaign contributions and post-public office jobs) by the Top 1%.
No, it was NOT the CONSUMERS. It was the POLITICIANS who were purchased (campaign contributions and post-public office jobs) by the Top 1%.
You don't read much do you? 1 percent of the population is doing better than ever.
WRONG. Where do you think all the money went? Do you think it evaporated? There is still just as much money as there has always been. 1 Percent of the population is hoarding it! There is plenty of money to spread around. Rich people and Corporations just need to pay taxes! Those who make the most out of OUR system should be required to pay the most into the system! Why are any of you opposed to this idea?
Spending more on something doesn't automatically guarantee a better product (or in this case, better results)...
...but 'ya spend (poop) 'ya get (poop)...
...widely acknowledged that prosperity for the middle class began under FDR and lasted until the late 70's/early 80's. Now regessionists (no longer considered conservatives) want to return the US back to the turn of the 20th century, a time without an effective gov't looking out for the masses, without environmental protections, without social security, without minimum wage laws...in short, a world we've spent the last century recovering from. Not good...not good...but enough people buy what these people are selling to make the possibility a real threat.
I'm not opposed to them paying taxes, but let's not forget that they do create jobs, they provide infrastructure to a populace that demands their services and goods, the people who established them worked hard to do so, many took personal risk to do so and could have just as easily fallen on their faces as been successful, and most importantly, THEY ARE NOT INHERENTLY EVIL. So while they shouldn't be allowed to pay no income tax at all, I see nothing wrong with tax incentives that encourage them to keep their companies open for business and their employees employed.
In other words, there is no easy solution without resorting to redistributing the wealth, which is communism, and nothing is going to come out of these protests of significance to change things.
Oh, and what makes you think that these companies paying more income tax is going to make things better for YOU?
http://smh.com.au/business/occupy-protestors-youre-probably-part-of-the-1-20111108-1n4rs.html
Very intresting read regarding the supposed 1%
Very intresting read regarding the supposed 1%
I can see this thread going bad places.
That being said, there are some BIG companies that pay next to nothing in taxes, like GE.
I think when you're a "big boy" it's probably easier to find loopholes to weasel your way out of paying taxes.
That being said, there are some BIG companies that pay next to nothing in taxes, like GE.
I think when you're a "big boy" it's probably easier to find loopholes to weasel your way out of paying taxes.
Very good Jimmy! I might add that companies do not pay taxes, they merely act as a conduit and pass them along to their customers (You and I).
As far as all rich people or companies being somehow bad...who has ever gotten a job from a poor person? I mean no matter what your thoughts are about this these are the people and entities who do, and will continue to provide employment, unless you either work for yourself or the government.
scottfeldstein said:
+1. This is pretty much exactly how I feel. These 'whiny brats' (thanks for that lowfreq) come from all kinds of places and have a myriad of grievances. These people are basically from all walks of life. What were seeing is the byproduct of a broken system that is rigged and maintained by a privileged few. Their tactics are pretty transparent when you start looking for it. They divide the country into two teams. Red and blue. Then they pit red against blue by aligning them to core values held by people based upon their religious beliefs, political beliefs, and core social beliefs. If you believe in this subset then you belong to this color and if you believe in this subset you belong to that color. And people fall for this crap. And they use this color system to create distractive divisive issues that draw our attention away from their money grab. They pit the middle class against the poor (people who have a job against those who are whiny brats too lazy to get jobs) the poor against the poor(those on welfare agsinst those who are underemployed) and the middle class against itself (public unions versus private unions versus the general private sector). They make elections seems like they are about non-issues that are nothing more than a distraction from the real issues. They provide us with choices between two candidate that are both funded by the same priveleged few that talk around these same distractive topics meant to divide us. Meanwhile they get the people that buy into these colors to do their bidding. They buy into the rhetoric. They're not 'the privileged few', they're 'job creators' (even though layoffs are often executed to show profit for the shareholders, and jobs are often shipped overseas because an exploited labor force in china or vietnam can produce higher profit margins) so they should be given tax relief. They also have buying into the idea that all is fair under the banner of capitalism, and that a corporation's pursuit of profit should be a protected right. This whole system is rigged and controlled by about 400 people. Personally, I'm not cool with this. I don't stand in protest with the occupier because I have a family, a job and responsibilities, but I definitely support them. They're the only ones standing up demanding change to the whole system.
Andy_D said:
Are you actually trying to tell me that a company's tax breaks trickle down to me the consumer? That's laughable.
So I see you've bought into the 'job creator' notion. These are the same job creators that use layoffs as a mechanism for profit, and outsource jobs overseas? There are plenty of other job creators out there that pay taxes. Small business and other large corporations that actually pay taxes, perhaps? Oh I get it, once you hit the top ten then you hit super-elite job creator status and you don't have pay taxes anymore.
No Maki, What I'm saying is that customers buy goods and services from companies and small businesses alike. When you tax these entities that money must come from SOMEWHERE. That somewhere is from the consumer in the way of higher prices paid. A tax on a business is merely a tax on the consumers of that businesses products or services. The business merely passes it along as an additional business expense. This is economics 101.
Andy_D said:
I'm fine with this. There are plenty of companies that I buy products from that pay taxes. I don't know if I've ever knowingly spent a single dollar on products offered by Goldman Sachs. Also last I checked the prices on GE household appliances were no cheaper than any of the products offered by other companies. I know GE is a giant company that does a lot more than household appliances, but I'm not in the business of buying medical equipment, or airplane parts either. Oh wait, I see the discount in my airfare, nope that can't be it. Ah, I must see this discount in my medical bills... Nope. Yeah, I'm fine with this. Economics 101. Any other economic lessons for me?
You want to tell me how bank of America passes its tax breaks onto it's customers too?
Now your branching into a whole new area called "Crony Capitalism" where the government through graft, kickbacks and other favors decides who the winners and losers are going to be. Again the problem here reverts back to the government. I mean can we really trust that our elected representatives in their efforts to be "Fair" will really be fair about anything?
That's funny, but that is the attitude that will (quite literally for some) eventually be the death of us. Yes, we are screwed if we stay within this system. The system needs to be torn down and recreated in a more fair and sensible form.
I'm really starting to feel lately that Karl Marx was more right than we ever knew. Every system eventually corrupts those at the top. It CANNOT be reformed from within because by definition, the people at the top will keep getting more and more money and power, and actively prevent the system from being changed. When that happens, there needs to be a revolution. Peaceful revolution would be nice, but when the ruling class does not want to let go of the power (and they almost never do), you get the French Revolution. Or the American Revolution part I.
People will not actively revolt until their lives are unbearably bad. We are not there yet, but the OWS is the first sign that we are getting there. Ignore the signs at your own risk. Your hard work will not accomplish much if we are in civil war.
I'm only a couple pages fresh in and instead of making a lengthy post that will probably be poorly worded I think Daily Kos: Open Letter to that 53% Guy
this letter sums it up much better.
Also one of the talking points I notice is that people say that the fact that these protestors have iphones and starbucks coffee some how affects their credibility simply is a pretty slippery argument. Consider how much it actually cost a year and compare that to the cost of health care and tuition cost for a institution of higher learning and it's really not the same.
Invalid Link Removed
I think this is another interesting read for anyone wondering what exactly people are asking for.
One last thing, I noticed someone mentioned that their cousin I believe just got out of jail and found a job that pays $10 an hour, which I believe in some areas of the country is fairly decent and in others it's fairly below average, and say working 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month, all 12 months of the year that puts you around $19200 a year which puts you very below the poverty line, especially if you consider that many people work this, while having to support a family of four. That's not really gainful employment, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing that your cousin found work, that's great, but people should have to settle for that.
this letter sums it up much better.
Also one of the talking points I notice is that people say that the fact that these protestors have iphones and starbucks coffee some how affects their credibility simply is a pretty slippery argument. Consider how much it actually cost a year and compare that to the cost of health care and tuition cost for a institution of higher learning and it's really not the same.
Invalid Link Removed
I think this is another interesting read for anyone wondering what exactly people are asking for.
One last thing, I noticed someone mentioned that their cousin I believe just got out of jail and found a job that pays $10 an hour, which I believe in some areas of the country is fairly decent and in others it's fairly below average, and say working 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month, all 12 months of the year that puts you around $19200 a year which puts you very below the poverty line, especially if you consider that many people work this, while having to support a family of four. That's not really gainful employment, and I'm not saying it's a bad thing that your cousin found work, that's great, but people should have to settle for that.
Andy_D said:
This is exactly what I've been talking about. No. We cannot trust the government. They are controlled by a small group of the ultra-wealthy and corporations. The only way we can trust them to be 'fair' is when you take money out of the equation. Cap the crap out of all lobby groups. Cap the crap out of how much can be spent on campaigns. Let's get fresh blood into the elected areas governments. Not just lawyers, the corporately-backed, and the wealthy. Let's bring in doctors, firemen, teachers, businessmen, philanthropists, scientists, and engineers as well. Make an elected official's job and eligibility for re-election dependent upon fiscal responsibility. Sadly I don't see any of this happening without a revolution.
When someone hires a hit-man to kill their spouse, who is the originator of the transaction? Who is the one it "reverts" back to?
Just the same, when lobbyists "hire" elected officials - the problem is BOTH, but it reverts back to the lobbyist!
A few comments back you stated the Fed is creating money out of thin air. Now you say we have as much money as we always have?
So are the problems gonna get solved when the Rich and Corporations start paying taxes?
Once again, if we don't change our ways...it won't matter.
All of our problems are CULTURAL.
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