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Doctor's appointment at 4...can't practice at 6!

Quote: “He was also dealing with 18-25 year old students, very few of whom have full time jobs, families, or health issues. Not realistic to expect 70 year olds to commit in the same way.”


Au contraire!

With respect, although this is an entirely natural assumption and conclusion.

Archibald actually taught that being absorbed in such musical enterprises as he was leading, was a privilege that should be denied to nobody, quite regardless of age or even ability.

He practised what he preached and in an era that was far less deferential towards people with clearly obvious disabilities, he positively encouraged such individuals to be involved in his performances.

As his Chorus was during his time recognised to be the best throughout the entire United States of America, you may be surprised that individuals in wheel chairs were at times lined up alongside the rest of the Chorus.

He was way ahead of his time, and as he finally retired from conducting wrote a tome, that basically outlined his approach to producing the great results he accomplished. In it he described a great of advice and many tips to young conductors.

If you could for a moment consider all the factors that many decades of top-level experience would impress on one. Things that no institutional tutorials would explain, no lecturer cover, no books teach. But things that would make the whole difference in creating a scintillating experience for everyone involved, but no one would ever teach or tell you. That was what his book was all about.

Although it covers many technical aspects of musical performance, it also covers all sorts of tricks and methods to improve the impressiveness of musical presentation. Much of it also is devoted to the problems of handling difficulties involving people, their personalities, frailties and idiosyncrasies.

For sure as a general point youthful voices tend to be superior in certain respects to older voices. But he did not see age as a barrier to be involved with his performances and rather, looked for the individual’s keenness, desire and passionate wish to devote themselves to committed involvement in the Chorus. He would have put it like something this..

Life is made of many fine interests and pursuits that can enliven and fascinate which individuals can pursue. Music however demands commitment to produce any truly fine result. Therefore, those involved should attend every or almost every weekly rehearsal without fail, or be quickly jettisoned. Except for the important, essential reasons I outlined in my previous post above.

Family or religious duties, funerals, hospital treatment, doctor’s appointment. Etc. et al.

I suppose it was just a common sense outlining of human moral values.


So.

Music, if it is to be performed well, must be put before many competing activities one could be involved with.

But there are some things in life, clearly more important than performing music.

That is the essential, axiomatic truism and salient point.
 
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To the OP, I hope you successfully resolve this...as you said in an earlier post the bandmate is also a friend, I hope that whatever the resolution you remain friends. In my situation, we had our Friday meeting and it seemed like we were all in the same place when the meeting started & we left all in the same place...we all see to want the same thing. The meeting was originally called following an audition of two singers & we also resolved that one of them should work for us. The guy that didn't make the cut is the one who made us each think "What the shag am I doing waisting my time on auditioning someone who clearly has a different vision for what kind of band he wants us to be." Once we got that out of the way, we were all in agreement.
 
Bandmate has a doctor's appointment at 4 p.m. but can't practice at 6 p.m. Does that seem right? It's a simple appointment, not anything very serious. I don't want to say what it is but it isn't invasive or anything that he would have to be anesthestized for or anything like that. A simple appointment.
If a bandmate gave me crap over that we’d have some serious “discussion” next we met.
 
Quote: “He was also dealing with 18-25 year old students, very few of whom have full time jobs, families, or health issues. Not realistic to expect 70 year olds to commit in the same way.”


Au contraire!<an entire page snipped out>

That is the essential, axiomatic truism and salient point.
Yeah, well, all that you wrote doesn't negate the fact that this guy was dealing iwth 18-25 year old STUDENTS who don't, by and large, have families, full time day jobs, health issues, lawyer appointments, etc., etc., so it's a lot easier to have them make a big time commitment to an amateur musical group.
 
Quote: “this guy was dealing iwth 18-25 year old STUDENTS who don't, by and large, have families, full time day jobs, health issues, lawyer appointments, etc., etc. so it's a lot easier to have them make a big time commitment to an amateur musical group.”


With complete respect.

You appear to have entirely missed the fundamental point.

Archibald led what was hailed the finest group of its type in all in America of that era, and is still, to this day.

Despite the demanding commitment required to produce excellent musical performances, of such a very high standard.

He taught that individuals should not be expected to attend rehearsals who required doctors hospital appointments, family duties, funerals etc.

He felt so strongly about this matter, the specific topic of this thread, that he passionately devoted an entire section of one of his books exclusively to the subject.

In other words, the demanding commitment art required, was comprehensively balanced by kindly humanistic, well-reasoned, genuinely caring, common-sense values.



To my reading of his tome.

He appeared to be concerned that young and inexperienced, heartlessly driving, ambitious conductors, in future years.

With their sharp elbowed, overwhelming desire to achieve at all costs, might be blinded to what is of overwhelmingly pre-eminent, uttermost importance.

That we in our humanity, are fragilely delicate and vulnerable, with deeply profound needs and requirements, that at times should be recognised as being of the most paramount importance.


That the need to attend a doctor is more critically essential and decisively significant, compared to the need to attend a rehearsal.

Which is of course, the relevant subject of this thread.



Videlicet.

The cardinal point is not to stress the supreme priority of rehearsal, as important as it is and implied by your response.

Rather, to highlight a fundamental salience, a most prominently paramount truth, that we are to "love our neighbours as ourselves".


To be honest, as young man, an American composer of Hollywood Films who I was touring with recommended Archibald’s book to me, along with a few others.

Slim as it was, I found it to be a tour de force that absolutely clarified many potential dilemmas and enabled me to avoid the stress induced by competing forces that I would have otherwise struggled with, throughout my musical career.

Therefore when this topic was raised, I was already cognisant of how it should be handled. Courtesy of one of Americas greatest musical legends.


Finally, having been born in the oldest university city of the western world, (1096) the second oldest in continuous operation in the entire world, to this day.

Surrounded by students most of my life in one of the world’s foremost universities. I’m slightly taken aback at the sentiment expressed. That students can easily find plenty of time for large commitments outside those, their studies and research work demand.

That they don’t have health issues or other appointments with learned professionals. Or indeed families. Its completely self-evident, patently obvious that all humankind have fathers and mothers, most have brothers and sisters, aunties and uncles.

Along with family duties to them.

This is true, everywhere, even of students.

So, that notion runs contrary to my personal experience.


However, I accept your point at its face value.

Appreciating the fact, it may indeed, be true to yours.
 
Quote: "I don't really understand what you just said, so I'm gonna take it as a sign of disrespect..."


A quote from a film, “The 40 Year old virgin”, I am given to understand. But its revealing to note your sources of information.

The question arises, why would anyone who didn’t understand what someone had said, immediately take their inability to understand something, to mean a person was disrespecting them?


Could it be symptomatic of an inferiority complex?


Whereas, a more simple and sensible approach might simply be to ask for clarification.

I think something Jordan Peterson said hereabouts might provide a most illuminating explanation. I trust might be of genuine benefit.

If you watch a short 4 minute section from 105.50 to 109.05 he makes some great points. Though the entire short talk and question and answer session is very rewarding to watch for those interested, with 90 minutes to spare.

Jordan Peterson | Full Address and Q&A | Oxford Union - YouTube
 
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I think you're much better off putting this question to him rather than us. Might be time for a frank conversation. Look you've missed/cancelled x number of rehearsals out of x number do you want to do this or not? The result will probably throwing toys out the pram and spitting dummies out and quitting but you'll have an answer at least.
 
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Quote: "I don't really understand what you just said, so I'm gonna take it as a sign of disrespect..."


A quote from a film, “The 40 Year old virgin”, I am given to understand. But its revealing to note your sources of information.

The question arises, why would anyone who didn’t understand what someone had said, immediately take their inability to understand something, to mean a person was disrespecting them?


Could it be symptomatic of an inferiority complex?


Whereas, a more simple and sensible approach might simply be to ask for clarification.

I think something Jordan Peterson said hereabouts might provide a most illuminating explanation. I trust might be of genuine benefit.

If you watch a short 4 minute section from 105.50 to 109.05 he makes some great points. Though the entire short talk and question and answer session is very rewarding to watch for those interested, with 90 minutes to spare.

Jordan Peterson | Full Address and Q&A | Oxford Union - YouTube
Yesssss very reveeeeaaaaling, dont you think? Please, tell us more. It is so very impressive this faaaaar.
I do love Jordan peeeeeterson. And anyone else that manages to say so much, and so little, in the same phrase.
 
Although this is clearly a very old thread, I believe there is a great deal that can be learnt from the situation the original poster describes.

It’s a typical model of a real-life situation that anyone who has been a band leader or even member might face, but nothing in our music tutorage or book actually prepared us for.

That was what was so great about Archibald, on the point of retiring from musical life, he wanted to pass on his decades of accumulated knowledge to the unsuspecting, forthcoming generation likely to be caught out by such matters.

A priceless resource for avoiding problems for those with a desire to learn.

As opposed to those who think they already know everything.


Any producer will tell you, knowing how to handle people and the situations caused by the baggage they carry, is one whole half of the job.

And this specific forum, out of all the fora on this site, is a living testament that the real-life dilemmas people in musical ensembles are faced with.

Enduringly provoke the very greatest difficulty and most tangled conundrums. Creating the most problematic unwanted situations needing to be dealt with.

No one ever mentioned such pit falls previously when we considered a musical career, thus unprepared most musicians walk blindly into situations, best avoided.


Yet one man did, if only we have the nous to learn from his experience.


Here’s the bottom line, reflecting on this issue.

I have already explained, courtesy of Archibald, how to deal with it.

Yet in this situation a great potential danger lays in wait for the band members tempted to jettison the player with a doctor appointment.

Clearly the ultimate solution would be to discard the miscreant member, yet as I mentioned earlier, this is really not the right issue actuating that process.


If they did, and people talk, as people do. Quite reasonably asking “why that member is no longer with the group”?

His entirely truthful answer would be: “They threw me out because I did not attend a rehearsal. I couldn’t, because I had to attend a doctor appointment.”

How will the band members feel then when that was shared around?

Will their former supporters, continue to support them?

In the future, how will they be perceived?

A Public Relations nightmare!


Their good name and reputation could easily be completely trashed subsequent to such a decision.

Worse of all, any wounds they received would in point of fact be entirely self-inflicted.

By their own act of unprofessional incompetence.


You see, its not enough to simply say or do the right thing.

It’s better to say and do the right thing, thinking through the potential consequences, in the worst-case scenario.

Doing the right thing in entirely the right way. In a manner that prevents any misinterpretation or misrepresentation of it, by people in future.

Actuating the optimal course of action, with the right timing, carefully choosing the right words. Preventing any false impression or misconception being allowed to spread amongst the groups following.


Once again.

The right thing to do might be to discontinue membership of the problematic individual.

But the need to attend a doctor for any reason, should never be the issue which precipitates such actuation.

If being jettisoned by the group could be a difficulty for the problem member, the group being jettisoned, by their public following, could be a far greater difficulty for the group.

That’s the bottom line.
 
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If a bandmate gave me crap over that we’d have some serious “discussion” next we met.
Well, I haven't, and won't, bring this up either to the member or the band. I don't want to think that there is an overriding issue or problem but that there has just been an unusual number of actual events that just happened week after week. For instance, a different member's mother just passed away this week, so no practice. While that, of course, and most of the others have been legitimate reasons for rehearsal, some have, at least to my mind, been questionable, like someone looking for reasons not to rehearse.

I think you're much better off putting this question to him rather than us. Might be time for a frank conversation. Look you've missed/cancelled x number of rehearsals out of x number do you want to do this or not? The result will probably throwing toys out the pram and spitting dummies out and quitting but you'll have an answer at least.

I might casually ask him if he's still into the project in a non-confrontational way if the right time arises.