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Double Bass Does arco jazz suck?
- Thread starter Jeff Guevin
- Start date
Well it's only a point of friendly discussion - the sort of thing I might talk about over a few drinks at my local Jazz club - we all have our opinions and preferences and nobody is right or wrong....
I write fast and don't edit much -- sometimes there's an angry or confrontational tone I don't want. Oh well -- no tears, no lost sleep.
As for where I'm coming from, if someone says to me "I don't like violin in jazz" you will find that 100% of the time I have no problem with that. Taste is taste is taste is taste and amateur or no we're in the art business where Taste is a kind of royalty. And it's cool.
Where the problem comes is where we get a whiff of the idea that violin in jazz necessarily is bad, that it's somehow not fit to speak or survive in the jazz idiom. Or, similarly, that a certain musician or music IS "bad" in an irredeemable sense, like some bluegrasser. That takes it beyond the realm of taste, of personal like and dislike, y'see, and into the realm of something else. In that realm, those ontological statements about truths in which the speaker believes will draw argumentative a**holes like me out of their little dens.
The use of the word "sucks" in the thread title got me going, then we had Grapelli and Carter and these anonymous bluegrassers offered up in close association with the "sucking" concept.
I think Bruce and I are on the same wavelength here. In the realworld actual version of the TalkBass pub -- as opposed to our familiar cyberworld of the TalkBass internet forum -- we wouldn't have much problem with this discussion as I can usually deal with this "taste" thing -- which so unnecessarily leads to so many disagreements -- early on. You probably wouldn't even have noticed it and I probably would have bought you a pint if you played nice. In an internet forum the discussion is cold and disjointed.
As for where I'm coming from, if someone says to me "I don't like violin in jazz" you will find that 100% of the time I have no problem with that. Taste is taste is taste is taste and amateur or no we're in the art business where Taste is a kind of royalty. And it's cool.
Where the problem comes is where we get a whiff of the idea that violin in jazz necessarily is bad, that it's somehow not fit to speak or survive in the jazz idiom. Or, similarly, that a certain musician or music IS "bad" in an irredeemable sense, like some bluegrasser. That takes it beyond the realm of taste, of personal like and dislike, y'see, and into the realm of something else. In that realm, those ontological statements about truths in which the speaker believes will draw argumentative a**holes like me out of their little dens.
The use of the word "sucks" in the thread title got me going, then we had Grapelli and Carter and these anonymous bluegrassers offered up in close association with the "sucking" concept.
I think Bruce and I are on the same wavelength here. In the realworld actual version of the TalkBass pub -- as opposed to our familiar cyberworld of the TalkBass internet forum -- we wouldn't have much problem with this discussion as I can usually deal with this "taste" thing -- which so unnecessarily leads to so many disagreements -- early on. You probably wouldn't even have noticed it and I probably would have bought you a pint if you played nice. In an internet forum the discussion is cold and disjointed.
What about Christian McBride's solo on in a hurry or just him playing the head for that matter? How about Edgar Meyer's solo on Solar from Music for Two? Not to mention Paul Chambers.
Like it or not some of these top players have chosen it to be their voice at times. So I would say it doesn't suck unless you want to argue that Christian McBride sucks.
Like it or not some of these top players have chosen it to be their voice at times. So I would say it doesn't suck unless you want to argue that Christian McBride sucks.
Michael Moore has an incredible sound Rufus Reid plays some good arco in their duos. Mingus' and Jim Garrisson's bowing was great but was never swinging. Henry Grimes plays great arco solo on a Mcoy Tyner Lp and a Roy Haynes Lp, both on impulse.
In avant garde jazz there is more like David Izenzon and Barre Phillips.
More modern free jazz (but still jazz) players with great arco would include John Lindberg, Mark Dresser, Mark Helias Kent Carter, JJ Avenell, Klaus Koch and many others.
In avant garde jazz there is more like David Izenzon and Barre Phillips.
More modern free jazz (but still jazz) players with great arco would include John Lindberg, Mark Dresser, Mark Helias Kent Carter, JJ Avenell, Klaus Koch and many others.
Great tips, thanks damonsmith! Clearly MM is a cat I have to check out. I've always loved and been inspired by Rufus, but haven't caught much of his bowing.
Re: Christian McBride on "In a Hurry" (from Gettin' to It)--I just listened to it twice and well, um, yeah, to me it sounds bad. Worse than many arco solos, in fact. It's scratchy, even abrasive in tone. Worse than the arco considerations, I think it's a pretty bad display of blues cliches, and he's blown out of the water by the other soloists on that same cut. But in its favor, it's short.
On the head, I'm a little annoyed by hearing his string smacking against the fingerboard because of the low action. </gripe>
McBride doesn't suck, he's really, really good. God, grant me the fortune to be anything like that kind of player. But when the bow comes out, I wait patiently until it's over.
Actually, speaking of God and arco, I remember reading of McBride that he said something like "when it comes time to play with the bow, I always say a little prayer".
Re: Christian McBride on "In a Hurry" (from Gettin' to It)--I just listened to it twice and well, um, yeah, to me it sounds bad. Worse than many arco solos, in fact. It's scratchy, even abrasive in tone. Worse than the arco considerations, I think it's a pretty bad display of blues cliches, and he's blown out of the water by the other soloists on that same cut. But in its favor, it's short.
On the head, I'm a little annoyed by hearing his string smacking against the fingerboard because of the low action. </gripe>McBride doesn't suck, he's really, really good. God, grant me the fortune to be anything like that kind of player. But when the bow comes out, I wait patiently until it's over.
Actually, speaking of God and arco, I remember reading of McBride that he said something like "when it comes time to play with the bow, I always say a little prayer".
While there is certainly some "scratch" to his jazz arco, I find John Clayton to sound great with the bow. Check out him playing East of the Sun on the Live in Paris DVD with Diana Krall's group. He gets the first solo on the tune and sounds awesome.
I'm watching the Rufus Reid DVD (going back to sound development) and it's on the "Playing on Ballads" chapter. Rufus is doing a beautiful accompaniment to Embraceable You with the bow. He's not soloing, but it sounds great, and he's doing so with some very fluid technique. After the piano solo and they get into the head, he changes to pizz though. It's sounds beautiful either way, and it's one of those "it just fits" situations where the bow was the best possible choice.
Canadian bass player Dave Young is apparently well known for his very skilled arco solos. I guess first year University of Toronto students are advised to get their arco chops together, because he works very specifically on that.
I'm watching the Rufus Reid DVD (going back to sound development) and it's on the "Playing on Ballads" chapter. Rufus is doing a beautiful accompaniment to Embraceable You with the bow. He's not soloing, but it sounds great, and he's doing so with some very fluid technique. After the piano solo and they get into the head, he changes to pizz though. It's sounds beautiful either way, and it's one of those "it just fits" situations where the bow was the best possible choice.
Canadian bass player Dave Young is apparently well known for his very skilled arco solos. I guess first year University of Toronto students are advised to get their arco chops together, because he works very specifically on that.
There used to be this local guy, "Slam" Stewart who played solos with a bow. He was pretty good.
As to "blue grassers", ever check out Edgar Meyer?
As to "blue grassers", ever check out Edgar Meyer?
Yeah get music for two which is him and bela fleck. Listen to his arco solo on solar and tell me it's cheesy.puff father said:
Either way you like it or you don't.
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone--I'll track all this stuff down and maybe post some impressions.
Check out George Mraz's playing on Mr. Pastorious from Bottom Lines or on Pepper from the Jazz CD.
John Clayton is what you are looking for. He has a legitimate arco pedigree and swings like a.... If you listen to him and think it sounds bad, then I think we can agree that you just don't like arco solos in jazz. A matter of taste.
I generally don't think that PC sounds good with the bow. I don't know if it's because of the recording quality or the gut strings or if it just sounded like that or if it's just my ear. I know he studied it and I certainly can't do what he did, but I just don't like what I hear. Some recordings are better or worse than others. Some don't suck, some I find intolorable, like a tree saw.
Last week, I discovered the only (to my knowledge) complete arco solo recorded by Butch Warren on the Donald Byrd record "Royal Flush". I was impressed. I love Butch Warren's ensemble playing, but only some of his solos. I'm surprised at how good this arco solo sounded. One more thing to like about the man.
But, if you're trying to determine if arco has any place in jazz, listen to some of John Clayton's solos and then you'll know where you fall on the subject. I agree that it's O.K. to decide that it's just not your preference.
Troy
I generally don't think that PC sounds good with the bow. I don't know if it's because of the recording quality or the gut strings or if it just sounded like that or if it's just my ear. I know he studied it and I certainly can't do what he did, but I just don't like what I hear. Some recordings are better or worse than others. Some don't suck, some I find intolorable, like a tree saw.
Last week, I discovered the only (to my knowledge) complete arco solo recorded by Butch Warren on the Donald Byrd record "Royal Flush". I was impressed. I love Butch Warren's ensemble playing, but only some of his solos. I'm surprised at how good this arco solo sounded. One more thing to like about the man.
But, if you're trying to determine if arco has any place in jazz, listen to some of John Clayton's solos and then you'll know where you fall on the subject. I agree that it's O.K. to decide that it's just not your preference.
Troy
The scratchiness and whatnot, I think, comes down to bad bow technique. My primary lessons are classical ones and I'm finding just how difficult it is to play fast and clear, and how much practice goes into being able to pull it off. Now most jazzers spend most of their days playing pizz, and to have a good bow sound you need to spend as much, if not more, time with the bow as you do with your fingers, and have to pay attention to keeping the bow straight and wrist, arm, and shoulder movement; all while remaining totally relaxed. (This is not to say that this is more diffucult than getting a good pizz sound, by any means).
Another issue is that many bass players don't change the way they play when they switch to arco. Though some lines come out nicely pizz style, they don't really work arco (and vice versa). You have the benifit of being able to sustain notes, but you don't get the same attack. So, in my opinion, to play jazz arco, you have to change your phrasing and melodies to fit this different sound.
Now, the other thing, is that many jazzers want a scratchy, vicious sound, and I think that guys like William Parker (who plays with David S. Ware and Matthew Shipp, along with a lot of his own stuff) can do amazing things with this sound, but here we really enter into the realm of opinion...
Another issue is that many bass players don't change the way they play when they switch to arco. Though some lines come out nicely pizz style, they don't really work arco (and vice versa). You have the benifit of being able to sustain notes, but you don't get the same attack. So, in my opinion, to play jazz arco, you have to change your phrasing and melodies to fit this different sound.
Now, the other thing, is that many jazzers want a scratchy, vicious sound, and I think that guys like William Parker (who plays with David S. Ware and Matthew Shipp, along with a lot of his own stuff) can do amazing things with this sound, but here we really enter into the realm of opinion...
Aaron Saunders said:
I definately agree that John Clayton is top in this category (IMHO). I don't know about Dave Young though, he came to my school for a master class. Although it was very good, I was more impressed with the non-arco playing he did.
